(08-12-2021, 09:27 AM)GethN7 Wrote: On your first point, 3 and 4 I just don't buy. If they did either, you'd get an immediate civil war. Admittedly, assuming this was pants-on-head retardation and you are right 3 and 4 were legit on the table, then I can see where the twain would meet.
As I said, it was a stupid plan. A plan that, most likely, would not have worked.
But that doesn't mean that it wasn't tried.
(08-12-2021, 09:27 AM)GethN7 Wrote: We already fought one civil war to make clear domestic insurrection against the lawful government does nothing except earning you the full wrath of the loyalist army,
Multiple such wars actually. Just only one was actually called a civil war, the others were rebellions and civil unrest. The difference is scale, not success.
(08-12-2021, 09:27 AM)GethN7 Wrote: so I still lean more towards this was not logically thought out over actual conspiracy.
Not logically thought out on whose part? The mob's? Well, most probably didn't think it through. But we have video evidence and ongoing trials and criminal investigations against members of the mob who did logically think through what they were doing and took measures to maximize their chances of success.
(08-12-2021, 09:27 AM)GethN7 Wrote: In the absence of clear criminal proof revealed in a court of law or open public confession this was a conspiracy, I'm just going to assume massive amounts of idiocy is more likely. If said proof materializes, then I'll happily take the L on this.
The thing is, conspiracy does not actually require spoken or written agreement. It does require agreement, mind you, but being told to go to the Capitol to cheer on lawmakers and then going is in itself an act of agreement. Now, that is not necessarily an illegal act, but the Capitol was closed. If they'd halted at the barriers and made noise? Not really an issue, because aside possibly breaking noise and protest regulations they wouldn't have broken no laws to my knowledge.
But they didn't. The mob forced its way onto the grounds and past the barriers. This is already conspiracy to trespass. Then they started assaulting people, shouting at the officers, and battering them (that is, actually hitting them). Now, last I checked that's a felony, so we are already there too, and because we are talking about a conspiracy, it does not matter who committed the act, it matters if anybody committed the act because all are responsible for all the crimes a conspiracy committed.
Then they forced the officers back further into the building, and again, if they'd halted there it would've been bad, but they didn't. Instead they battered down the doors and windows, doing quite some damage to government property in the process, and continued their assault. In the process, 4 people died, and as a felony had already been committed, that's 4 counts of felony murder for which all members of the mob are responsible. On top of everything else. The US Department of Justice is handling the relevant cases very softly indeed.
And yes, strictly speaking the fellow who instructed his followers to go the Capitol is part of the conspiracy, why do you ask? They agreed with him after all that that was a good idea.
(08-12-2021, 09:27 AM)GethN7 Wrote: As for the second one, okay, that's news to me (and anyone trying would be insane, we have the Secret Service for a reason)
When a crowd is chanting 'hang Mike Pence', I am not going to presume they want to give him a massage, I am going to presume they either actually want to hang him, or, if not, that their intent is irrelevant because somebody is going to do so because that's what the crowd is loudly shouting that is what they want.
And when members of the mob are wearing body armour, hauling wrist cuffs and are moving around in a place where hours if not minutes earlier duly designated representatives of the people were working, in a place that is said representatives work place when acting as representatives, and when said representatives have been subject of politically motivated attacks and many have received death threats from people purporting to be supportive of the fellow the mob supports, I am not going to presume they wouldn't try to murder them too.
And yes, it's a good thing security was on the ball when it came to evacuating Congress. This could've gotten much, much bloodier than it did.
(08-12-2021, 09:27 AM)GethN7 Wrote: but assuming 3/4 from the first point were on the table for real, granted. Still, I think you place too little faith in the United States military. Trump might have been their boss at the time, but even the President cannot issue unlawful orders and expect American soldiers to carry them out. The Nazis were told "just following orders" was BS, they had moral judgment they should have exercised, same applies to American troops.
It is not unlawful to be instructed to remain in barracks even while the city is burning down and they can assist.
Now, I don't think they would've heeded that order. But they'd have been in an active state of mutiny themselves for ignoring that order.
And even if they had heeded that order, I expect they'd have acted on January 21st to ensure the rightful president was in power.
I just don't know whether they'd have put in the president elect, or the incumbent. Depending on the situation, either might've seemed a better option to the forces in the capital, and it's hard to know which. Especially since while Trump might be an idiot, the people around him were generally competent. They'd have tried to make sure things went as they desired.