Seeing as redemtion is a major theme in DW, I wondered what the limit to Dougs "power of redeeming" is. What character would NEED it the most, yet be ABLE to be redeemed. My moneys on Gollum.
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Redemption
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I have no meaningful comment, just a song clip... but in this series, that almost is a meaning ful comment.
0/~ ...And I think it's about/forgiveness/forgiveness/evin if/even if/you don't love me any more ... o/~ Title, artist, other lines... all unknown. It just floated through my head in search of something to connect itself with. - CD -- "Anko, what you do in your free time is your own choice. Use it wisely. And if you do not use it wisely, make sure you thoroughly enjoy whatever unwise thing you are doing." - HymnOfRagnorok as Orochimaru at SpaceBattles woot Med. Eng., verb, 1st & 3rd pers. prsnt. sg. know, knows
... gollum......... o.o
hrm.... hrm.... well I can see the redeeming part but I doubt Bob could make a step out of Lotr..... no offence Bob. _________________________________ Take Your Candle, Go Light Your World. 
None taken, WengFook. I wasn't planning on doing LOTR, basically because it's too epic in scale; even given how Doug mostly works on a local level, accidentally causing global changes, it's too big a place for him. I mean, what am I going to have him do, march up to the gates of Mordor and challenge Sauron to a fistfight?
-- Bob --------- There's no wrong way to eat a Rhesus.
no, it'd have to be a rubber chicken duel, 'cause _damn_ he needs to lighten up (Sauron)
![[Image: kokbanner.jpg]](http://www.tertiary.net/Torvus/kokbanner.jpg) --- Kokuten Daysleeper, Retired Epicced Officered DorfWire Geek - Burning the weak and trampling the dead since 1979 -- Bob --------- There's no wrong way to eat a Rhesus. 
If you can redeem Katsuhito Jinnai, I'd be impressed.
__________________ Into terror!, Into valour! Charge ahead! No! Never turn Yes, it's into the fire we fly And the devil will burn! - Scarlett Pimpernell Quote:Are you kidding? In the idle daydreams that pass for my early story development process, Doug beats the crap out of Jinnai. Or worse. By the standards of good/evil that Doug enumerates in the fragment of a Harry Potter Step I have, Jinnai is almost certainly irredeemable. -- Bob --------- There's no wrong way to eat a Rhesus. Quote:. Err...Jinnai isn't that sturdy Bob. __________________ Into terror!, Into valour! Charge ahead! No! Never turn Yes, it's into the fire we fly And the devil will burn! - Scarlett Pimpernell
Well, yeah, that's part of the point. I don't think Doug would be considering Jinnai's long-term survival post-beating to be a high priority.
-- Bob --------- There's no wrong way to eat a Rhesus. Quote: How is Madigan redeemable and Jinnai not? Both of them had committed monstrous acts. Is it because Madigan had a conscience (no matter how small) and Jinnai revels in it? __________________ Into terror!, Into valour! Charge ahead! No! Never turn Yes, it's into the fire we fly And the devil will burn! - Scarlett Pimpernell
Mahoro Ando of Mahoromatic. Lorelli of Saber Marionnete J
Two girls with a load of grief and guilt on their shoulders. Both of them seeking forgiveness if not redemption for what they had done. __________________ Into terror!, Into valour! Charge ahead! No! Never turn Yes, it's into the fire we fly And the devil will burn! - Scarlett Pimpernell Quote:I can see Doug eventually getting frustrated with this line of questioning, and blurting "My god, man, it's one thing to do evil, it's another to _roll_ in it!" --- Kokuten Daysleeper, Retired Epicced Officered DorfWire Geek - Burning the weak and trampling the dead since 1979
In Catholic canon, the deed itself is secondary to the intent. If you thought about committing murder, you have committed a sin, since thought is father to the deed. It doesn't matter if you enjoyed it or not.
__________________ Into terror!, Into valour! Charge ahead! No! Never turn Yes, it's into the fire we fly And the devil will burn! - Scarlett Pimpernell
Yes, but a) we're not talking Catholic canon, and b) not everyone agrees with that position to begin with.
And please don't start a flame war over this - I'm willing to discuss my personal views offline, but this is not the place unless Bob really wants me to. Offsides Drunkard's Walk Forum Moderator and Prereader At Large Quote:Yeah, pretty much. Jinnai's whole world revolves around getting what he wants, using any methods with no remorse or hesitation when it comes to their selection. He doesn't learn from mistakes, or from reality, for that matter, and you can't just defeat him, because he'll come back, angrier and nastier, and more willing to perform any atrocity necessary to achieve his goals. You have to kill him to stop him from hurting more people. Madigan, otoh, is a successful businesswoman, which (even before the conscience she shows in DW2) means that she has to know how to negotiate, how to know when she's in a no-profit position, how to retreat and reconsider. You can make a deal with her and expect her to keep to it, more or less. Even as a bad guy, Madigan is a reasonable person. Jinnai is just a mad dog. -- Bob --------- There's no wrong way to eat a Rhesus. Quote:Yeah, exactly. Madigan's change of heart comes from the discovery that the world is not one constant shade of moral grey, that there is in fact an absolute polarity of good and evil, and that she is not satisfied with being evil when she can be good. Jinnai already knows there's absolute evil and good, and has enthusiastically embraced evil as the best course to oppose Makoto. In doing so, he is responsible for thousands if not millions of deaths, and cares nothing for them. (Note that I don't consider the Bugrom evil -- they are as much Jinnai's victims as anyone else.) -- Bob --------- There's no wrong way to eat a Rhesus. Quote:Obviously, Doug adheres to no one religion's view of the world. His point of view on religious-based morality is similar to that of someone who once admired doctors but has since gone to work for a lawyer who specializes in malpractice suits... -- Bob --------- There's no wrong way to eat a Rhesus. Quote: Are you giving the Bugrom the "They were only following orders" defense? That line of reasoning has been claimed by every perpetrator of mass killings from the Nazis, the Japanese, the Serbians, the Tutsi's in Rwanda, Chinese in Tibet and every army general in South America. Let's not forget also that the U.S. Army also conducted massacres (with the enthusiastic approval of the government and civilians) in two instances. I'm talking post-Civil War people, so don't go into an uproar. The Bugrom are in a state of total war.Co-existence between Bugrom and humans looked dismal at best. When Diva employed Jinnai as her commander-in-chief, she approved and even rewarded him for his "victories". She shares equal blame with him. Since the Bugrom are an insect society closely resembling ants, what she knows, all knows. So, if Doug "sanctions" Jinnai, he's going to have to sanction Diva too. That would have the effect of killing off the Bugrom. So, is Doug willing to commit genocide to stop Jinnai? Is he willing to become judge, jury and executioner to an entire race of beings? As for legal justification...the Tokyo trials in 1945 for Generals Homma and Yamashita established a legal precedent. The commander is responsible for all acts his soldiers commit in the field, regardless whether he is communication or not. Jinnai is a bright boy. Once Doug tells him that fact, he'll know very quickly his fate. To make the whole story short..Doug will have to decapitate the entire command structure and kill off the Bugrom in the bargain. Quite legal too. The United States made a precedent in 1943. The air ambush and assasination of Admiral Yamamoto in the Solomons. We knew when and where he was going to be and the Joint Chiefs of Staff approved the operation. It's success definitely shortened the war in the Pacific. I had always thought about this. What would you do when you are confronted by a foe that doesn't believe in the Geneva conventions? 17 years later, I still haven't come up with an answer. I just thank the Almighty that I never came across a situation where I had to make that decision. __________________ Into terror!, Into valour! Charge ahead! No! Never turn Yes, it's into the fire we fly And the devil will burn! - Scarlett Pimpernell Quote: They didn't teach that little tidbit when I attended a Catholic school. I came across it on one of Staffshief's "Wizard in Ryhme" books. I had to verify if what he said was true. And I do agree that religion is not the place for this forum. __________________ Into terror!, Into valour! Charge ahead! No! Never turn Yes, it's into the fire we fly And the devil will burn! - Scarlett Pimpernell Quote:The Bugrom are an insect society and really don't have free will. Diva and Jinnai are the ones responisble for the Bugrom's evil. If you had a queen who was peaceful, the Bugrom would be peaceful. At any rate, the Bugrom are almost all dead. Diva and the few that Jinnai gave names are all that's left. They paid the price for their leaders' evil. -------------------- Tom Mathews aka Disruptor Quote: The Bugrom are a collective like the Borg. What one knows, all knows. Worse, Diva is a queen, which in insect societies mean a baby making factory. (I wonder if Jinnai figured out he's the donor? Worse, if Diva has habits like a mantis?) Quote:As soon as Diva finds a new hive, she'll be back in the baby making business. __________________ Into terror!, Into valour! Charge ahead! No! Never turn Yes, it's into the fire we fly And the devil will burn! - Scarlett Pimpernell 
That's a pretty big assumption there, Org. Is there any canon reference for it?
I have the DVD set for the OAVs. From what I've seen and recall, the Bugrom work like a hive, but I don't recall any evidence that they were telepathic. They simply have no concept of themselves as individuals. So I agree with the thought that the Bugrom in and of themselves are not inherently peaceful or warlike, good or evil. They show occasional glimpses of individuality (re: Jinnai's various interactions with Katsuo and the other named Bugrom), but in many ways, they are less sentient (self aware) than unawakened Boomers. Thus, less individually responsible for what Diva and Jinnai make them do. -Logan ----------------- "So there I was, lying flat on my back, with my face pressed into the dirt, thinking, "Wait a minute, something's not rig..." ----------------- Quote: Nothing really explicit, but Jinnai's gift is the ability to talk to the Bugrom. but you noticed he's speaking in Japanese and they're speaking in their language. Speech is a two-way form of communication. Jinnai getting the gift of some form of telepathy to communicate with different species I can see. But being an active telepath would probably overload his brain with all the thoughts he'd be hearing. On the other hand, communication with a telepathic species would be much more easier even if he's only a passive telepath. Since he's shown no evidence of being able to read other people's thoughts like Mizuhara or his sister. Jinnai being a passive telepath would be a better bet. There's also the scene where Jinnai was winning the war with the Alliance. One of the ways he can do that is if had a far superior communication system than his enemies. Since the Bugroms shows no sign of having used radios or any signalling devices at all, the leaves telepathy as the alternative. __________________ Into terror!, Into valour! Charge ahead! No! Never turn Yes, it's into the fire we fly And the devil will burn! - Scarlett Pimpernell
Granted, that telepathy is one possible answer for Jinnai's strategic advantages. There is another, however.
Note that there is a class of bugrom used as messengers. They are about the size of sparrows. Other than the big transport Bugrom, they are the only ones seen to fly. And one could assume they can move _really_ fast. (What's the fastest flying bug in the real world? Anyone know?) The humans in El Hazard do not seem to have radio technology. They do have those flying boats. But I think the fastest one of those we saw was the priestesses. And it looked like it was moving maybe 60-70 MPH? If the messenger bugs are faster than almost all of the human transport/communication tech, then I'm thinking that a relay system of those little bugrom would provide Jinnai with all the advance communication he would need, and reconaissance capability as an added "feature". Send swarms of them into the skies and relaying messages back and forth constantly and Jinnai would have an almost real time view of the strategic situation. Where it comes to communication lag, he may have an advantage measured in minutes or even hours over the Roshtalian forces. This theory doesn't invalidate your own idea. I offer it as an alternative, though. -Logan ----------------- "So there I was, lying flat on my back, with my face pressed into the dirt, thinking, "Wait a minute, something's not rig..." ----------------- |
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