"Mass production" in Fenspace

[HRogge]

After a discussion with BlackAeronaut about producing things in Fenspace I would like to hear feedback of the community on this.

We were talking about how things are produced in Fenspace and how close Fenspace is to a replicator or similar fabbing equipment. My view on it was that (in 2015) most of Fenspace is still "limited" to waved and nonwaved machine tools (like CNC), some are working with waved 3D-printers and a few factions have even gone beyond this to the realm of "create nearly everything from raw stuff, just add a plan".

But maybe I am wrong with what's my current feeling about it, what do you think? How does Fenspace "mass produce" things (not one of a kind jobs)?

[Ebony]

The Armory (the base for the Rugsuckers) is the closest that the Banzai Institute comes to mass production. Primarily a fabricators' shop and testing area (including gun range), the Armory includes CAD/CAM systems and various fabrication equipment, but they only produce in limited quantities. A close equivalent would be a custome bike shop like Orange County Choppers, with a broader range of output (and a noted lack of cameras to catch the arguments).
Ebony the Black Dragon
http://ebony14.livejournal.com

"Good night, and may the Good Lord take a Viking to you."

[LynnInDenver]

Mass production in Fenspace resembles, on some levels, the efforts of the 'dane Make community, with homebrew CNC machines and cobbled together 3D printers, combined with Handwavium to enable them to handle materials that even professional equipment has trouble handling. On other levels, it resembles the factory line of the "Model T", or of an aircraft factory turning out ten aircraft over the course of a year. The biggest operations resemble modern assembly lines, only with tighter tolerances than can be managed by a 'dane factory at the speed they work, robot systems actually capable of handling one-off errors without merely yanking the piece with the error, and human intervention when the product needs to be "doped" with Handwavium for a final result.
--

"You know how parents tell you everything's going to fine, but you know they're lying to make you feel better? Everything's going to be fine." - The Doctor

[Dartz]

Well, your average gearhead will at least have a basic CNC mill and or lathe, of varying quality. Some will have manually operated versions, or a combination of both. They don't really need to be waved, thpugh the individual tools may have to be, especially if you're machining something like Battlesteel. Stingray hardsuits are specifically intended to be produced using only 'basic' CNC tooling, as that was all that was available to Jet at the time the original design was created. I'm assuming that would be the standard Fen workshop.

Moulding, forging and forming hardware would also be pretty much the exact same as Earthbound equipment, maybe with some added safety protocols surrounding waved parts.

3D printers would be a little less common, and be capable of far more intricate devices, including some moving parts. 3D printers are really good for rapid-prototyping and one-offs, so if you're building a lot of custom-sized parts they're perfect. It's how Steganovich Steelwear is able to near mass-produce their version of the Stingray hardsuit. They take a standard template, adapt it to match the measurements of the customer, then feed the autogenerated measurements into the printer. If you really know what you're doing, you might be able to get some fine control of the material's capabilities.

Nanofacs are that taken to 11... but most are jealously guarded by mad;s who've managed to wave them, and tend to impart quirks to the projects they put together.
________________________________
--m(^0^)m-- Wot, no sig?

[Cobalt Greywalker]

I point to http://www.fenspace.net/index.php5?titl ... Curve_2014]this. In essence, there are automated waving devices based in techniques pioneered by the Catgirling machine. While they're extremely complex to program (A.I. programming requires either very high levels of programming skill, or to be an A.I. in the first place. Usually both.) and set up, the effort means you can turn out 10 to 20 times as many gadgets as a person, without variations in quirks. They're not exactly reprogrammable though.

[LynnInDenver]

I point to this. In essence, there are automated waving devices based in techniques pioneered by the Catgirling machine. While they're extremely complex to program (A.I. programming requires either very high levels of programming skill, or to be an A.I. in the first place. Usually both.) and set up, the effort means you can turn out 10 to 20 times as many gadgets as a person, without variations in quirks. They're not exactly reprogrammable though.

There is that. I expect, though, that some really small producer is actually a little squicked by the idea that it came as an offshoot of the catgirling machines, and won't use them. Past that, it would prove usable... for those willing to put forth the required efforts to get it working in their particular assembly line.
--

"You know how parents tell you everything's going to fine, but you know they're lying to make you feel better? Everything's going to be fine." - The Doctor

[Black Aeronaut]

Well, all that said, I can safely say that Black Aeronaut Technologies over at 36 Atalante is the sort of State-Of-The-Art manufactory system that comes in the Top Five among the Fen. They have several factory lines that can be easily reconfigured to build whatever needs to be built, and there is still plenty of room for more lines to be built. Clever bastard that he is, Benjamin has designed his manufactory lines as von Neumann machines, so when the time comes to add on to their building capacity he only needs to task a manufactory line to do so.

[robkelk]

If I recall correctly...

Star Trek style "replicator" technology is right out. Fenspace doesn't have matter-energy-matter manipulation of any sort.

Nanotechnology is slightly retarded as to where one would think it would be, because Noah Scott lived up to his billing of "richest S.O.B in space" and took the relevant information out of the Whole Fenspace Catalog before publication. StellviaCorp has an edge here, because Noah isn't just sitting on that information, but there's only so much that a minor faction can do on their own.

"Instant prototypers" and other 3-D printers are advanced because of handwavium - see JFerio's post for why. They aren't "instant", although they're faster than the state-of-the-rat in OTL.

Old-fashioned assembly lines are limited to the folks who do that for a living (e.g. Hephaestus) or really big factions (pretty much the Big Six). Most of those concentrate on shipbuilding.
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."

- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012

[Black Aeronaut]

Well, to sketch things out a bit further, a BAT line works something like this. All the lines draw from the Raw Materials Management Center. In all reality, this is a specialized factory line where raw materials, in whatever bulk-form is proper, are preprocessed into materials that are more usable in the factory lines. Included is also a recycling center where leavings from the manufacturing processes as well as worn parts are scrapped for raw material.

The next stage is manufacturing. Preprocessed materials are made into the individual parts through a combination of 3-D printers (usually for the electronics and carbon-nanotube frames), CNC machinery (precision-machined moving parts), and more standardized automated systems for forging, casting, molding, cutting, and welding (structural parts and armor).

Assembly consists of two stages: sub-assembly where parts are assembled into larger assemblies, which are then sent on to primary assembly where the assemblies begin to make a whole. For example, the Blackbird-class has nine major structural assemblies: forward fuselage, mid fuselage, aft fuselage, starboard and port nacelles, starboard and port wings, and starboard and port stabilizers.

Finally comes outfitting. Not all orders are the same - some requests are downright unusual - and the final part of the manufactory is designed with this in mind. Need a Blackbird kitted for recon? No problem. A Peacemaker to be used as a troop transport? Done. An Albatross built for bulk-liquid transporting? As soon as you cut the check.

Parts are as standardized as they can possibly be - some maintenance techs have been given flashbacks to when they played with Legos as a child. Modularity also features prominently, so a BAT ship can be re-purposed with ease, especially when the kit has been ordered from BAT.

[robkelk]

Digression:

BAT line
...
BAT ship

So, the asteroid chamber that houses all this is the BAT Cave?

Actually, that isn't a question. As soon as the Pulpers hear those terms, the asteroid chamber that houses all this is the BAT Cave. Ben can say otherwise, but his protests will have as much effect as A.C.'s protests about being called Sailor Mars (read "don't say it where they can hear you")... Such is the way of the Fen.
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."

- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012

[Ebony]

robkelk wrote:

---

Digression:

blackaeronaut wrote:

---

BAT line
...
BAT ship

So, the asteroid chamber that houses all this is the BAT Cave?
Actually, that isn't a question. As soon as the Pulpers hear those terms, the asteroid chamber that houses all this is the BAT Cave. Ben can say otherwise, but his protests will have as much effect as A.C.'s protests about being called Sailor Mars (read "don't say it where they can hear you")... Such is the way of the Fen.

Blackstone grimaced slightly, looking mildly embarrassed, as he said, "So, Ben, the Institute scored a rather impressive amount of copper-zinc alloy that we weren't using, and ... well, some of the Rugsuckers were talking, and ... well, there may have been a bottle of Captain Slowbrain involved, but they came up with this. They said you needed it at your facility." He motioned to a large, circular object that J. and Kaos were levering upright with the help of a forklift. As it reached an upright position, standing on edge, Nezumi started untying the canvas protecting it. As the cover fell away, a giant American one cent piece was revealed, standing ten feet high. "They said they didn't have enough polyurethane foam for the dinosaur."
  
Ebony the Black Dragon
http://ebony14.livejournal.com

"Good night, and may the Good Lord take a Viking to you."

[Star Ranger4]

Aaaaaannnnd the penny drops! *rimshot.mp3*
Hear that thunder rolling till it seems to split the sky?
That's every ship in Grayson's Navy taking up the cry-
NO QUARTER!!!
-- "No Quarter", by Echo's Children

[Black Aeronaut]

robkelk wrote:

---

Digression:

blackaeronaut wrote:

---

BAT line
...
BAT ship

So, the asteroid chamber that houses all this is the BAT Cave?
Actually, that isn't a question. As soon as the Pulpers hear those terms, the asteroid chamber that houses all this is the BAT Cave. Ben can say otherwise, but his protests will have as much effect as A.C.'s protests about being called Sailor Mars (read "don't say it where they can hear you")... Such is the way of the Fen.

Blackstone grimaced slightly, looking mildly embarrassed, as he said, "So, Ben, the Institute scored a rather impressive amount of copper-zinc alloy that we weren't using, and ... well, some of the Rugsuckers were talking, and ... well, there may have been a bottle of Captain Slowbrain involved, but they came up with this. They said you needed it at your facility." He motioned to a large, circular object that J. and Kaos were levering upright with the help of a forklift. As it reached an upright position, standing on edge, Nezumi started untying the canvas protecting it. As the cover fell away, a giant American one cent piece was revealed, standing ten feet high. "They said they didn't have enough polyurethane foam for the dinosaur."

Ben will take it with good humor, snerking and chortling the whole way, and wondering why the hell he didn't realize it right away (Gina lets a few like this slip by the radar just because).  Although, he will go one to say, "Guys, just remember that I'm am anything but the Dark Knight - I just don't have the figure for it.  However, if you want to get Gina and Jess into Batgirl and Robin costumes respectively, then you're welcome to try."

[robkelk]

However, if you want to get Gina and Jess into Batgirl and Robin costumes respectively, then you're welcome to try."

"Oh, Jess... cosplay? Noah and Jake will give you a giant playing card for your base's collection if you say 'yes'..."

Considering that there's figures of Rei as everything else, I wouldn't even blink at superhero-Rei. And Jess actually has a sense of humour.

Now how to get Gina into the other outfit...
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."

- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012

[Jinx999]

The way I estimate, while Fenspace is by policy self-sufficient in food (which does strike me as difficult) and raw materials and is capable of quality worshop machining and handwavium high tech, there is a large middle ground of stuff that's imported from Earth. Both because of comparative advantage and fennish quirks. This includes processed and specialised food (eg Pocky, Mexican Coca Cola, decent Scotch), mundane technology where there is important economy of scale (that would be most of it), stuff too prosaic for most Fen to bother with (eg toothbrushes, cotton cloth, trainers) and raw materials for handwavium industries that would be hard to produce in space (eg latex rubber, paperback books, engine oil, avacados).

[robkelk]

The way I estimate, while Fenspace is by policy self-sufficient in food (which does strike me as difficult)

If you can't feed yourself, you run the risk of starving to death. If you can feed yourself, no matter how monotonous the diet, you can worry about doing something else. That's one reason why Noah waited until after Wonderland was producing food to declare independence.

This includes processed and specialised food (eg Pocky, Mexican Coca Cola, decent Scotch)

Yes, decent Scotch (and other alcohol, other than beer) will have to be brought up from Earth for a few more years or decades. There's no way Prometheus Forge can supply all of Fenspace with whiskey, after all.
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."

- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012

[HRogge]

*smile* okay, that was a much better response than I expected.

Will help a lot to think about a strategy how to continue with Catgirl Industries productionwise.

[KJ]

Speaking as someone who, at least as a sideline, does machining stuff in a home shop, I have to wonder about some assumptions.  At least as far as scale is concerned.

There's obviously going to be some groups making Stuff, Up Here.  I wouldn't leave home without my mill and lathe and such, and I know there's a bunch who'd feel similarly.  I have no doubt that there's going to be some quasi-Makerspace setups too that are open for use, but I also imagine they'll be pretty heavily booked up.  And anyone who's making the effort to loft machine tools for their own use is going to be utilizing them pretty heavily.  I mean, a basicish CNC mill starts at around 20 grand or broadly equivalent in time to convert a manual mill, plus it's about a ton or several of mass that has to be moved, plus infrastructure in terms of tooling and all the rest.  And even if people have machinery available, it still takes a bit of expertise to go from blueprints/CAD drawings to a finished product; it's all too easy to design something that's not machineable.  It took me quite a bit of practice to learn to hold tolerances.

Secondly, machining stuff out of billet can only go so far; you can't really carve closed hollow things for example (like rocket engines)  To make anything, there's going to be major secondary operations; welding, riveting, or bolting or bonding stuff together.  Each of those requires their own set of design considerations, and in at least some of the cases fall under the category of skilled trades.

Thirdly... none of what's been mentioned (machining, 3d printing, etc) really counts as "mass production"; they're all limited processes optimized towards one-offs really.  In terms of time spent and material wasted making each piece, machining (CNC or otherwise) is close to the least efficient method possible.  Making, for example, metal-style aircraft is a long process involving stamping and forming sheet metal and lots and lots and lots of accurately drilled holes with rivets put through them.

Anyway, just some information of a "reality check" sort; I encourage people who want their characters to be building stuff to take some of this kind of thing on board to figure out ways around, or whatever.  

[HRogge]

I think "mass production" in Fenspace is most times a "not building it one by one by hand"...

But you are right, there might be a lot "handwaved away" in the production process in Fenspace. But if we do it realistic, then most of Fenspace would not exist.

[KJ]

I guess what I'm sort of getting at is that the amount of productivity one is going to get scales directly with manpower and effort put in. Maybe some of us should take a step back and think about what their character's focus is; put another way, there's a reason why this whole thing started at 'waved craft that were made by the normal means on Earth. Fundamentally, more or less everything has to start from some hardtech produced basis, and people need to put a little thought into where that basis comes from if they're talking about building big, impressive stuff from scratch. For some numbers, in WW2 a heavy bomber took on the order of 20 to 30 *thousand* man hours to complete the airframes alone; that's ignoring the engines and all the other worky bits, and it's not like they were pressurized; modern aircraft clones are going to take a lot more. People should think about where those man hours are going to come from; we have handwavium derived hypertech at our disposal obviously, but then you have the time to make *those* machines, and the machines to make those, etc.

I'm just trying to point out that it's kind of a subset of "be mindful of hogging all the cool" really.

[HRogge]

getting a good balance between "how cool is this" and "is this beyond the line" is hard...

[ECSNorway]

On a random side note: In Greenwood's administrative circles -- especially Stonewell-Bellcom execs -- the unofficial backronym for BAT is "British AnimeTech". Which results in occasional confusion when outsiders hear discussions of coop ventures between the two companies... which may well be deliberate.
--
Sucrose Octanitrate.
Proof positive that with sufficient motivation, you can make anything explode.

[Black Aeronaut]

*Snrks* Oh MAN! And even worse, the guy that would inevitably own British AnimeTech would be none other than Ben "Gryphon" Hutchins. So there would be two BATs both owned by a Ben. Thank you Mr. Marsden.

Too bad we can't get the EPU people involved in this, but I know they their plates tend to be full as it is.

[Warringer]

Ignore this post...

[ECSNorway]

Sure, Warringer. Hard to ignore the new avatar, tho...
--
Sucrose Octanitrate.
Proof positive that with sufficient motivation, you can make anything explode.