Wiki update discussion thread

[Cobalt Greywalker]

As a side effect of the med tech entry, I thought about updating other bits of the Fenwiki to the current freeze point.

My first thought, due to another thread on the Spacebattles forums, turned to weapons.

Outside some extra links and formating, here are the updates:

=== Projectile Weapons ===

Generally these are coilguns in the 20mm - 100mm range. '''Coilguns''' have proven themselves as a good general purpose weapon with sustained fire rates, and have been around a while.

The '''Mass Driver''', the bigger brother to the coilgun, has started to appear in places, however the weaponized versions are rare, as most that are built are the electromagnetic catapult version.Such systems may actually be part of a missile tube on larger vessels or for launching small craft quickly.

In early 2013 the '''Railgun''' was perfected. This is a weapon good for armour piercing and has a superior burst firing ability as well as a faster muzzle velocity of around 100 times the speed of sound. The most effective calibre currently is the 20mm round.

First seen in prototype during Serenity-Con is the '''Rail Cannon''', a weapon using a 155mm round weighing 5Kg with a maximum muzzle velocity of 1 PSL (Percent of the Speed of Light). This weapon has a low rate of fire (1-3 rounds per minute) at maximum power. It typically operates at muzzle velocities of 1000 times the speed of sound with a slightly higher firing rate of 20 rounds per minute. Due to a combination of power use, size, and heat levels generated in action, it is only mounted on stations and ships of the Destroyer type and up.

---

'''Particle Beams''' are still fairly rare in Fenspace after their explosive (figuratively speaking) introduction at [[Boskone War#Boskonian Bases|Boskone Prime], due to their large size and much larger energy requirements. Again, these weapons are normally mounted on stations and large vessels. Any vessel that mounts one is classed as a Battleship or Battlecruiser. The latter are especially closely watched by the Fen [[Space Patrol|law] and [[Great Justice|military] organisations.

---

As it stands, most '''missiles''' are vacuum adapted versions of those found in the 'Danelaw. Only [[Stellvia Corporation] had access to pure space designs originally, and they didn't share with anyone (except once, when they delivered a consignment of missiles to the USS ''[[Stingray]'' at the very end of the [[Boskone War]). These used specialist warheads (specifically [[Kaboomite], but rumours of other high-level warheads exist). Since then other [[Faction Guide|factions] have developed more 'aerospace' versions, with the new '''Illudium-P24 Space Modulator''' warheads.

---

Any objections?

[Dartz]

The obvious downside of the electromagnetic weapons is the charging time prior to the first shot, and the fact that you need a fully functioning power supply system to power them. Add to that, if an enemy has a decent sensor array they can probably detect the power being shunted towards the capacitors or whatever is used to power the weapons. Especially if they've got the drop on you or have their weapons spun up already.... that charge time gives them a chance to open fire.

(That said, I did once build a coilgun that used a three-phase electricity supply direct from the mains in the shed. It worked..... once. Then caught fire and fused itself because I'd rigged the breaker box so it wouldn't cut power when I switched it. That got expensive. The hardest part of the big zap guns is powering them. And not melting your power supply, or the wiring leading up to the power supply. And I don't want to know what happens when a capacitor bank that large takes a hit.)

There's a good reason why chemically propelled weaponry is still popular, especially for Q-ships and self-defence. It has a power signature of almost Zero, power requirements of almost zero and a rate of fire of up to 2 rounds a second. While they lack the raw kinetic punch of rail and coilguns...... they can also fire explosive ammunition that will burst *inside* the target rather than going through and through. (Another real danger with kinetic weapons is hitting what's on the other side of the target).

A number of pirate ships have been thoroughly surprised to stop what they think is a standard roadrunner, only for it to wait for the pirate to get close enough and unleash a torrent of fire from a battery of 76mm gast-action dual-barrel autocannon, firing 4 rounds per second at point blank range, a mix of armour piercing and explosive shot that should pretty much cripple anything.

And for missiles. If I was insane, I'd replace the boosters on This with guided kinetic missiles. Run at the target at .15-.18c..... launch missile from outside the drive field and hope they hit. Because changing vectors at that speed is going to be tough.
________________________________
--m(^0^)m-- Wot, no sig?

[HRogge]

First seen in prototype during Serenity-Con is the '''Rail Cannon''', a weapon using a 155mm round weighing 5Kg with a maximum muzzle velocity of 1 PSL (Percent of the Speed of Light). This weapon has a low rate of fire (1-3 rounds per minute) at maximum power. It typically operates at muzzle velocities of 1000 times the speed of sound with a slightly higher firing rate of 20 rounds per minute. Due to a combination of power use, size, and heat levels generated in action, it is only mounted on stations and ships of the Destroyer type and up.

Do we really want to state "hard values" ? This can get crazy quickly (and might produce an arm-race around the "most BANG cool").

And for missiles. If I was insane, I'd replace the boosters on This with guided kinetic missiles. Run at the target at .15-.18c..... launch missile from outside the drive field and hope they hit. Because changing vectors at that speed is going to be tough.

I must admit I don't like this either. If we allow to generate "Kinetic kill vehicle" just be putting them on strong beams/cables/whatever outside a speeddrive field, we can just forget about the whole "Speed drives produce not that much kinetic energy".

[Dartz]

Well, actually separating the missiles from the hypothetical Space Stuka without disintigrating the spacecraft is tough. It'd probably either outright refuse to work, or knock the KE of the missiles back down to a 'sane' value in order to allow them to be safely jettisoned without disrupting the ships own drive field. Even a momentary braking field or a disengagement system kicking it off the wing mount, while sapping a lot of the raw energy would bring it to 'sane' values.

A sort of poor-mans version of the speed-drive..... And dive-bombers are cool
________________________________
--m(^0^)m-- Wot, no sig?

[HRogge]

Well, actually separating the missiles from the hypothetical Space Stuka without disintigrating the spacecraft is tough. It'd probably either outright refuse to work, or knock the KE of the missiles back down to a 'sane' value in order to allow them to be safely jettisoned without disrupting the ships own drive field. Even a momentary braking field or a disengagement system kicking it off the wing mount, while sapping a lot of the raw energy would bring it to 'sane' values.

That would sidestep the problem with the easy KKV, yes.

[Black Aeronaut]

Err... Noah's not gonna have the entire market share for 'pure vacuum' missiles. Ben would have his own design.

It would be pretty damn simple, too. Small, yet potent short-duration fusion torch, explosive payload, and guidance system. The only sophisticated part is the guidance system. Anti-fighter missiles have to be quick by nature, not to mention quick to track. They have a fire-and-forget system (good for furballs) with the option of being manually guided in until they can passively or actively track their targets (this allows for long distance surprise strikes). Tracking systems consist of a passive high-definition camera with a range from infrared to ultraviolet. The active system is radar tracking, and also provides for passive, HARM-style tracking. There is also a beam-rider option using either laser guidance or radar illumination.

The only differentiation is in the size classifications: anti-fighter, anti-ship, anti-vessel, and anti-installation. Granted, as the size increases the guidance system becomes somewhat less sophisticated - slower target, harder to hide, harder to move. However, all tracking options are still present and available.

And Ben has had VLS modules on production model Blackbirds since eight-O'clock, day one.

[HRogge]

To put CGs numbers into a context, you would need an energy source producing more than one TERAwatt constantly to fuel this 1pls gun. I think we still have to work on this numbers if we want to specify both speed and mass of the projectile.

[robkelk]

Err... Noah's not gonna have the entire market share for 'pure vacuum' missiles. Ben would have his own design.

Exactly. Noah's the first with vacuum weaponry, not the only one.
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."

- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012

[Black Aeronaut]

Err... Noah's not gonna have the entire market share for 'pure vacuum' missiles. Ben would have his own design.

Exactly. Noah's the first with vacuum weaponry, not the only one.

Eh, I'll concede that.  He certainly had a lot more to protect earlier on.

[robkelk]

To put CGs numbers into a context, you would need an energy source producing more than one TERAwatt constantly to fuel this 1pls gun.

That's a pretty big solar-power array, even with handwaved efficiency...
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."

- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012

[HRogge]

To put CGs numbers into a context, you would need an energy source producing more than one TERAwatt constantly to fuel this 1pls gun.

That's a pretty big solar-power array, even with handwaved efficiency...

1000 km^2 or more... even with 100% efficiency.

[Black Aeronaut]

To put CGs numbers into a context, you would need an energy source producing more than one TERAwatt constantly to fuel this 1pls gun.

That's a pretty big solar-power array, even with handwaved efficiency...

1000 km^2 or more... even with 100% efficiency.

This is why Ben likes fission reactors.  Whole lotta bang.  Itty-bitty space. 
36 Atalante has six at its core.  Mostly to power the mass driver launch system they use.

[HRogge]

This is why Ben likes fission reactors.  Whole lotta bang.  Itty-bitty space. 
36 Atalante has six at its core.  Mostly to power the mass driver launch system they use.

I am sorry to say this, but fission power is not enough to fire this weapon at the "demonstrated rate".

The largest fission power plants are single-digit GIGAwatt... not TERAwatt.

[Cobalt Greywalker]

OK, maybe I should have put the From -> To diffs in the original post. Let's do that now.

---

From:::
Generally these are coilguns in the 20mm - 100mm range. '''Coilguns''' have proven themselves as a good general purpose weapon, and have been around a while.

The bigger brother to the coilgun. The '''Mass Driver''' has started to appear in places, however the weaponized versions are rare, as most that are built are the electromagnetic catapult version.Such systems may actually be part of a missile tube on larger vessels or for launching small craft quickly.

Lately the '''Railgun''' has been perfected. This is a weapon good for armour piercing and has a superior rapid firing ability as well as a faster muzzle velocity on 100 times the speed of sound. The most effective caliber currently is the 20mm round.

Currently in prototyping is the '''Rail Cannon''', a weapon using a 155mm round weighing 5Kg with a projected muzzle velocity of 1 PSL (Percent of the Speed of Light).

To:::
Generally these are coilguns in the 20mm - 100mm range. '''Coilguns''' have proven themselves as a good general purpose weapon with sustained fire rates, and have been around a while.

The '''Mass Driver''', the bigger brother to the coilgun, has started to appear in places, however the weaponized versions are rare, as most that are built are the electromagnetic catapult version.Such systems may actually be part of a missile tube on larger vessels or for launching small craft quickly.

In early 2013 the '''Railgun''' was perfected. This is a weapon good for armour piercing and has a superior burst firing ability as well as a faster muzzle velocity of around 100 times the speed of sound. The most effective calibre currently is the 20mm round.

First seen in prototype during Serenity-Con is the '''Rail Cannon''', a weapon using a 155mm round weighing 5Kg with a maximum muzzle velocity of 1 PSL (Percent of the Speed of Light). This weapon has a low rate of fire (1-3 rounds per minute) at maximum power. It typically operates at muzzle velocities of 1000 times the speed of sound with a slightly higher firing rate of 20 rounds per minute. Due to a combination of power use, size, and heat levels generated in action, it is only mounted on stations and ships of the Destroyer type and up.

---

From:::
'''Particle Beams''' are still only a theoretical weapon, requiring power and/or hardtech equipment that Fenspace can't access at the moment.

To:::

'''Particle Beams''' are still fairly rare in Fenspace after their explosive (figuratively speaking) introduction at [[Boskone War#Boskonian Bases|Boskone Prime], due to their large size and much larger energy requirements. Again, these weapons are normally mounted on stations and large vessels. Any vessel that mounts one is classed as a Battleship or Battlecruiser. The latter are especially closely watched by the Fen [[Space Patrol|law] and [[Great Justice|military] organisations.

---

From:::
As it stands, most '''missiles''' are vacuum adapted versions of those found in the 'Danelaw. Only [[Stellvia Corporation] has access to pure space designs, and they don't share with anyone (except once, when they delivered a consignment of missiles to the USS ''[[Stingray]'' at the very end of the [[Boskone War]). These use specialist warheads (specifically [[Kaboomite], but rumors of other high-level warheads exist).

To:::
As it stands, most '''missiles''' are vacuum adapted versions of those found in the 'Danelaw. Only [[Stellvia Corporation] had access to pure space designs originally, and they didn't share with anyone (except once, when they delivered a consignment of missiles to the USS ''[[Stingray]'' at the very end of the [[Boskone War]). These used specialist warheads (specifically [[Kaboomite], but rumours of other high-level warheads exist). Since then other [[Faction Guide|factions] have developed more 'aerospace' versions, with the new '''Illudium-P24 Space Modulator''' warheads.

---

This should cover the issue about Noah's initial lead on vacuum missiles.

Next, hard numbers for the Rail Cannon. It was mostly an execise in limiting things. As I put in the scene during the Battle of Serenity-Con, a 5kg 'shot' at 1PSL has kenetic energy equivilent to 5.4 kilotonnes of TNT. This is not a small amount of energy to hit something with, especially in a small surface area. (As an aside, the recoil of one shot damn near stopped the Stallion in space.)
Even the low 'regular' speed woud hit with the equivilent of ~83 tonnes of TNT, and as specced we can fire one every three seconds.

And who says we only have one per ship?

Thus we come to the power issue. Quite frankly, power capacity is not a problem to the Fen. These are people with working arc reactors being used to supply powered armour. Given that the prototype in the first film was stated to produce 3 gigajoules per second or 3 gigawatts on a continuous basis, and the Fen probably have better versions, I cannot realistically see much larger ship and installation powerplants NOT being able to supply enough energy to charge capacitors for at least 20 seconds for the fastest fire rate I specced.

Power distribution can be a different proposition, but why don't the Fen have high to room temp superconductors?

[Black Aeronaut]

This is why Ben likes fission reactors.  Whole lotta bang.  Itty-bitty space. 
36 Atalante has six at its core.  Mostly to power the mass driver launch system they use.

I am sorry to say this, but fission power is not enough to fire this weapon at the "demonstrated rate".

The largest fission power plants are single-digit GIGAwatt... not TERAwatt.

Who said they were Terrawatt reactors?  200 GW a piece (makes for a big reactor, but Handwavium is involved) and even then we're using huge banks of capacitors.  (Atalante is roughly 100km in diameter - I think there's enough room.)  Upgrades will happen over time, and eventually they work their way towards have 1TW reactors... probably sometime around 2030's or 2040's.  Okay or not okay?

[M Fnord]

First seen in prototype during Serenity-Con is the '''Rail Cannon''', a weapon using a 155mm round weighing 5Kg with a maximum muzzle velocity of 1 PSL (Percent of the Speed of Light).

No. Just... no. The good people of Fenspace are not going to be throwing around nuclear-grade kinetic weapons, because nothing after that point will end well. At all. Word of Mod says, this goes away.
Mr. Fnord interdimensional man of mystery

FenWiki - Your One-Stop Shop for Fenspace Information

"I. Drink. Your. NERDRAGE!"

[Norgarth]

In one of my story segments set near the begining of the SOS-con, I indicated that the researchers at B.5 thought they had managed to develop a weaponized laser.
I can't recall if I included it in the segment, but I had intended to indicate that it wasn't the first time they thought they'd 'gotten it' however, which I figured would give me an out if the collective didn't want lasers that soon. Their problems generally being that components would burnout/melt when the proper amount of power was channeled through them.
___________________________
"I've always wanted to be somebody, but I should have been more specific." - George Carlin

[Black Aeronaut]

First seen in prototype during Serenity-Con is the '''Rail Cannon''', a weapon using a 155mm round weighing 5Kg with a maximum muzzle velocity of 1 PSL (Percent of the Speed of Light).

No. Just... no. The good people of Fenspace are not going to be throwing around nuclear-grade kinetic weapons, because nothing after that point will end well. At all. Word of Mod says, this goes away.

True.  And if this had been around during Serenity-con, then those Boskonians wouldn't have been such an issue.  A gun like this would have plinked one-shot their ships at any range (especially with the Midnight providing real-time target data - a Blackbird specialty even before Handwavium).  So yeah, no sub-light railguns... at least not anytime soon.  Same should probably go for the heavy particle beam weapons.  Remember, folks, we want to protect ourselves, not conquer the known universe.  :p

[HRogge]

Who said they were Terrawatt reactors?  200 GW a piece (makes for a big reactor, but Handwavium is involved) and even then we're using huge banks of capacitors. (Atalante is roughly 100km in diameter - I think there's enough room.) Upgrades will happen over time, and eventually they work their way towards have 1TW reactors... probably sometime around 2030's or 2040's. Okay or not okay?

So the roughrider produce more than half the nuclear energy the whole Earth produced in 2012? Sorry, I think you added a few too many zeros.
(According to this, 2012 Earth had a total nuclear generation of 370 GW).

[Black Aeronaut]

Look, I'll argue the point with you when I don't have to be moved out of my place in less than 48 hours. Laters.

[LynnInDenver]

So the roughrider produce more than half the nuclear energy the whole Earth produced in 2012? Sorry, I think you added a few too many zeros.

(According to this, 2012 Earth had a total nuclear generation of 370 GW).

Remember, though, we have the Whole Fenspace Catalog, and Handwavium.... ramping up that much by 2016-2018 should be reasonably easy (for a given tech curve, anyway). Although it's going to take a major player/faction to get up there, if only because significant resources still have to be tossed at it.

Plus, actual generation capacity doesn't have to be that large... storage capacity for a fixed installation can be massive. Massive enough some might question the sanity of maintaining that large a capacity in view of the potential for cookoff... but if the defenses are penetrated in a way that causes that incident, the cookoff is actually among the least of your concerns.
--

"You know how parents tell you everything's going to fine, but you know they're lying to make you feel better? Everything's going to be fine." - The Doctor

[Dartz]

I worked in power transmission for an internship. What happens when a few Megawatts get loose and the protection systems don't trip is.... 'entertaining'. And a high-voltage capacitor bank going bang isn't nice for anything in the vicinity either.

Although, I'm also limited by the fact that a 3Gw Arc reactor isn't far off the 3.4 GW currently being drawn on by all households in the Republic of Ireland combined. (The record is just over 5GW). I don't think the movie writers understood just how much raw energy that is. It's enough to power a country.
________________________________
--m(^0^)m-- Wot, no sig?

[Cobalt Greywalker]

RE: power - Sci-Fi Writers Have No Sense Of Scale? And we have lots of Fen (Supers or not) saying "But it's canon..!", so that's what the 'Wave will produce.

OK, so my 4 year plot has failed (seriously, Rail Cannons being developed with 1PSL muzzle velocity has been there since day 1), but I suspect potential is better than actual here.

Dropping the max muzzle velocity to Mach 1000, and rate-of-fire to 10 rounds a minute sound good to everybody? That's a KE equivilent to 70 tonnes of TNT per shot.

(MATH TIME:

KE is 1/2 * mass(kg) * velocity(m/s)^2. 0.5 * 5 * 343000^2 = 294122500000 Joules.

Tonnes of TNT = 294122500000 Joules / 4184000000 Joules per tonne of TNT = 70.296965 tonnes of TNT.

Power output needed = 294122500000 Joules / 6 secs (for 10 rpm) = 49020416666.666666666666666666667 Watts = 49 Gigiwatts = Bank of 18 Arc Reactors.

Capacitance needed = Joules/Volts^2. 294122500000 Joules / 100000 Volts^2 = 29.41225 Farads = Bank of 30 * 1 Farad Capacitors.

Hum... This becomes fairly easy actually.)

[HRogge]

RE: power - Sci-Fi Writers Have No Sense Of Scale? And we have lots of Fen (Supers or not) saying "But it's canon..!", so that's what the 'Wave will produce.

Wave will produce something similar... if you wave a mini-arc reactor it will power your Iron Man suit... but it wouldn't produce anything like 3 GW. If you wave something that looks like a Warp Nacelle you get an FTL drive... but its still not as fast as the Enterprise.

Maybe a large one (like in Starks factory) could, the comics describe it as a fusion reactor, so it should be possible, especially with some Fenspace Catalogue help.

The main problem with the "book of hax" is that it describes hardtech... so yes, it contains fission and fusion tech (the second one is the source of the JAXA reactor in the Thor Heyerdahl). But hardtech is limited by physical laws, its not "get energy from nothing out of a soda can".

[Rakhasa]

Something like the 3GW probably will not be reached until someone builds and then 'waves one of the really powerful hardtech generators from the Catalog, and then the reactor will be the size of the original hardtech parent, with should be big. (but then, 3GW should only be needed for huge installations, whole asteroids or capital ships)