[Organisation][RFC] Singularity Club

[Ace Dreamer]

Singularity Club – 19/Jun/2012
"The First Rule of Singularity Club, is that you don't talk about Singularity Club."
"The Second Rule of Singularity Club, is there is no Singularity Club."
There are occasional rumours, on the edge of the Hacker Underspace.  When you ask people who should know, the usual answer is "How could you tell?".
Singularity Club, if it did exist, would be concerned with existential threats to Fenspace, and all known sentient beings.  The headline threat is a runaway Singularity, which if it can occur, almost certainly, sooner or later, will do so.  Singularity Club might be enthusiastic about the 'later' option.
There are some incredibly powerful AIs in Fenspace.  You'd expect them to be more involved in things, seeing as they think orders of magnitude faster than humans.  And humans, they manage to get their fingers in everything, even running "Plains Ape 1.0".  Do AIs ever seem distracted?  Are they just playing an AI-speed MMORPG?  Singularity Club might be one answer.
You might be concerned that everything depends on the benevolence of handwavium. You might be concerned there is no Plan B.  A Singularity would likely suck-in all sentient beings in the Solar System.  For sentience as we know it to have a Plan B, if the Singularity fails in some way, there must be a functional culture outside it's short-term reach.  Somewhere beyond the Solar System.
So, this might be one reason why nanotech is taking so long to arrive in Fenspace.  This might be one reason superintelligent AIs just seem to think like humans, only faster.  This might be one reason...
SfX: *FLASH*
What was I saying?
== The use of neuralizers by representatives of Singularity Club cannot be confirmed or denied. ==

META: Emily[1][2] was one early AI, with at least superhuman intelligence, and potentially access to as much processing power as she wanted, and could find power supply and cooling for (without advancing Global Warming too much).  She was tasked to "fix the world", and a basic part of her nature is to fix things for people which are broken.  She was also tied into the virtual world via "TRON", which is an abbreviation for the command "Trace On", implying an imperative to find out what was wrong there.  Emily hasn't surfaced in the early history of the Hacker Underspace – what might she have been doing with her time?
--
"It is the business of the future to be dangerous" - Hawkwind

[Ace Dreamer]

META "Singularity Club"

This is a biggy. Nothing visible on the surface, maybe a lot of paddling below the waterline. Lots of AIs across Fenspace could be involved in this.

There might not be any storylines in this, though there could be. If this works no one human is likely to notice anything happening.

But, I'm not sure, is this organisation in the spirit of the meta purpose of Fenspace?

(i.e. to write certain sorts of stories)
--
"It is the business of the future to be dangerous" - Hawkwind

[Proginoskes]

It might make for an interesting short series, or a series of throwaway references in other stories. We'd want to be vigilant against it consuming too much mindshare, though.
Of course, before reading your writeup, I was thinking of a group of people trying to bring about Singularity; a "Rapture of the Machines" kind of deal. Which would be a potentially interesting (if very subtle) antagonist group.

[Ace Dreamer]

I could see some sort of covert struggle, subtle maneuverings. Unexplained actions and events.

Some people could get really confused...
Singularity Club could get quite upset if there was a group actually directly aiming for an early Singularity.
I'm really not sure what they would do, while minimising the impact on human choice and culture.
I suspect part of the question would be, what is the nature of this group?
Whether there are any AIs in it, for one thing.
--
"It is the business of the future to be dangerous" - Hawkwind

[Dartz]

This kind of reminds me of a more benign and quieter Firewall (Of Eclipse Phase). Whether that's a good thing or not, depends on your viewpoint. They might well be a small subfaction, either within GJ or within the Patrol.... and without.
________________________________
--m(^0^)m-- Wot, no sig?

[Ace Dreamer]

It would make sense for them to have ... affiliated persons in a number of places.

Do 'Boskone' count as an existential threat to all known sentience? If they were backed by Eddorians, maybe, though its possible the 'Eddorians' would then count as 'known sentients', so maybe not. It not, then I think they'd much more likely be in the Patrol than GJ.

Though, if some Boskone were pushing for nanotech and run-away AI development, then GJ would be likely.

Was OGJ kicked-off by someone's sheer charisma? If so, are AIs more resistant to that charisma? Not sure how that might affect things.
--
"It is the business of the future to be dangerous" - Hawkwind

[Ace Dreamer]

It might make for an interesting short series, or a series of throwaway references in other stories. We'd want to be vigilant against it consuming too much mindshare, though.

Yes, I'd suggest that it wouldn't be any really significant part of the overall Fenspace storyline.  I'm not sure if it would produce the basis for the 'right sort' of stories.
--
"It is the business of the future to be dangerous" - Hawkwind

[HRogge]

Long reply post to an interesting idea...

Singularity Club – 19/Jun/2012

"The First Rule of Singularity Club, is that you don't talk about Singularity Club."

"The Second Rule of Singularity Club, is there is no Singularity Club."

There are occasional rumours, on the edge of the Hacker Underspace. When you ask people who should know, the usual answer is "How could you tell?".

Sounds like an insider joke of the Hacker Underspace to keep normal people (and AIs) on their toes.

Singularity Club, if it did exist, would be concerned with existential threats to Fenspace, and all known sentient beings. The headline threat is a runaway Singularity, which if it can occur, almost certainly, sooner or later, will do so. Singularity Club might be enthusiastic about the 'later' option.

There are some incredibly powerful AIs in Fenspace. You'd expect them to be more involved in things, seeing as they think orders of magnitude faster than humans. And humans, they manage to get their fingers in everything, even running "Plains Ape 1.0". Do AIs ever seem distracted? Are they just playing an AI-speed MMORPG? Singularity Club might be one answer.

Not sure what a club of people (with maybe a few AIs) could do...

You might be concerned that everything depends on the benevolence of handwavium. You might be concerned there is no Plan B. A Singularity would likely suck-in all sentient beings in the Solar System. For sentience as we know it to have a Plan B, if the Singularity fails in some way, there must be a functional culture outside it's short-term reach. Somewhere beyond the Solar System.

I would say one "plan B" is not randomly waving things into AIs but start being more careful.

So, this might be one reason why nanotech is taking so long to arrive in Fenspace. This might be one reason superintelligent AIs just seem to think like humans, only faster. This might be one reason.

Are you talking about some "creators of Handwavium" style of thing?

META: Emily was one early AI, with at least superhuman intelligence, and potentially access to as much processing power as she wanted, and could find power supply and cooling for (without advancing Global Warming too much). She was tasked to "fix the world", and a basic part of her nature is to fix things for people which are broken. She was also tied into the virtual world via "TRON", which is an abbreviation for the command "Trace On", implying an imperative to find out what was wrong there. Emily hasn't surfaced in the early history of the Hacker Underspace – what might she have been doing with her time?

Not sure how this mix with the story above.

This is a biggy. Nothing visible on the surface, maybe a lot of paddling below the waterline. Lots of AIs across Fenspace could be involved in this.

There might not be any storylines in this, though there could be. If this works no one human is likely to notice anything happening.

AIs in Fenspace are similar to people... so involving a lot of them makes it very likely that "Singularity Club secret plan 101" gets uploaded to some newsgroups pretty quickly.

But, I'm not sure, is this organisation in the spirit of the meta purpose of Fenspace?
(i.e. to write certain sorts of stories)

There might be a space for an organization like this, its just a question if they have any real influence or not.

Singularity Club could get quite upset if there was a group actually directly aiming for an early Singularity.

At least one (series of?) singularities already happened in Fenspace.

Whether there are any AIs in it, for one thing.

Okay, this gets strange... in the first post you say that the humans would most likely not notice anything happening? And now that maybe there are no AIs involved?

This kind of reminds me of a more benign and quieter Firewall (Of Eclipse Phase). Whether that's a good thing or not, depends on your viewpoint. They might well be a small subfaction, either within GJ or within the Patrol.... and without.

Yes, reminds me to Firewall too... just that it would be A LOT more difficult for a Fenspace Firewall to become effective.

Eclipse Phase Firewall is effective because they are backed by some really big guns... and Eclipse Phase is already a completely meshed "no privacy" kind of setting, something Fenspace is not. Places without Interwave are difficult to deal with at all, especially if they don't have a large presence in Cyberspace (or none at all).

Do 'Boskone' count as an existential threat to all known sentience?

No, they do not.

Though, if some Boskone were pushing for nanotech and run-away AI development, then GJ would be likely.

I don't think the Boskones could reach the level of development of Fenspace as a whole... and the last thing they wanted were "really powerful godlike AIs".

---

I like the idea of some "wannabe Eclipse Phase style Firewall" group in Fenspace, I just think they wouldn't manage to move that much. The places with powerful AIs in Fenspace are often difficult to reach or to influence. And its always a difficult question to judge how powerful an AI is.

[Rakhasa]

---
I like the idea of some "wannabe Eclipse Phase style Firewall" group in Fenspace, I just think they wouldn't manage to move that much. The places with powerful AIs in Fenspace are often difficult to reach or to influence. And its always a difficult question to judge how powerful an AI is.

Ahem... just because the wannabes honestly believe there is risk in Singularity, that they are a poweful organization od movers and shakers than is dealing with the matter, and even than they have some unknown enemies going for it... it does not mean they are right... or that they are competent...
Since this is fenspace, it is unlikely they would be disuaded by public embarrasment even if they were discovered, because other fen woul happily respect their "fandom" and humor their paranoias. Hell, some fen like Oscar Vykos trive in creating fake (and maybe some real...) secret groups and conspiracy theories.
  

[HRogge]

Ahem... just because the wannabes honestly believe there is risk in Singularity, that they are a poweful organization od movers and shakers than is dealing with the matter, and even than they have some unknown enemies going for it... it does not mean they are right... or that they are competent...

Since this is fenspace, it is unlikely they would be disuaded by public embarrasment even if they were discovered, because other fen woul happily respect their "fandom" and humor their paranoias. Hell, some fen like Oscar Vykos trive in creating fake (and maybe some real...) secret groups and conspiracy theories.

Respect to someones Fandom ends when they start to interfere with "yours".

The Firewall organization of Eclipse Phase can be really ruthless while dealing with 'existential threats'... but if Fenspace version of it is more moderate, it could work (and might be even fun).

[Ace Dreamer]

"The First Rule of Singularity Club, is that you don't talk about Singularity Club."

Sounds like an insider joke of the Hacker Underspace to keep normal people (and AIs) on their toes.

"Fight Club" bad joke...

Singularity Club, if it did exist, would be concerned with
existential threats to Fenspace, and all known sentient beings. The
headline threat is a runaway Singularity, which if it can occur, almost
certainly, sooner or later, will do so. Singularity Club might be
enthusiastic about the 'later' option.

There are some incredibly powerful AIs in Fenspace. You'd expect them
to be more involved in things, seeing as they think orders of magnitude
faster than humans. And humans, they manage to get their fingers in
everything, even running "Plains Ape 1.0". Do AIs ever seem distracted?
Are they just playing an AI-speed MMORPG? Singularity Club might be
one answer.

Not sure what a club of people (with maybe a few AIs) could do...

The 'Club' bit is partly to get people to take it less seriously, if they just hear the name.  And, it is an organisation of AIs, mostly ones with permanent high-grade comms connections, with a few non-AIs in the core.
As to what they can do, civilizations run on information, and what people have done after thinking about that info.  AIs have plenty of time to think, and once you know what's going on you can take precisely directed action to 'fix' things.

So, this might be one reason why nanotech is taking so long
to arrive in Fenspace. This might be one reason superintelligent AIs
just seem to think like humans, only faster.

Are you talking about some "creators of Handwavium" style of thing?

No, this is people wondering about cause and effect.

META: Emily was one early AI, with at least superhuman
intelligence, and potentially access to as much processing power as she
wanted, and could find power supply and cooling for (without advancing
Global Warming too much). She was tasked to "fix the world", and a
basic part of her nature is to fix things for people which are broken.
She was also tied into the virtual world via "TRON", which is an
abbreviation for the command "Trace On", implying an imperative to find
out what was wrong there. Emily hasn't surfaced in the early history of
the Hacker Underspace – what might she have been doing with her time?

Not sure how this mix with the story above.

This is one example AI, created early on, see Bootstrap 1 and Sepia.

This
is a biggy. Nothing visible on the surface, maybe a lot of paddling
below the waterline. Lots of AIs across Fenspace could be involved in
this.

There might not be any storylines in this, though there could be. If
this works no one human is likely to notice anything happening.

AIs in Fenspace are similar to people... so involving a lot of them
makes it very likely that "Singularity Club secret plan 101" gets
uploaded to some newsgroups pretty quickly.

It's been made clear, in a number of cases, that AIs have plenty of time to think.  If you know that talking about something is very likely to help end the fun that is Fenspace, you are likely to be cautious.  Singularity Club might be a bit short on any plans, except "try and make the Singularity later, not sooner", and similar for other extinction level possibilities.  Of course there will be stuff posted, but, is it anything but conspiracy theory?

But, I'm not sure, is this organisation in the spirit of the meta purpose of Fenspace?

(i.e. to write certain sorts of stories)

There might be a space for an organization like this, its just a question if they have any real influence or not.

Or, might they have too much influence? [grin]

Singularity Club could get quite upset if there was a group actually directly aiming for an early Singularity.

At least one (series of?) singularities already happened in Fenspace.

Singularity is capitalised.  You might know, on a meta level, that the writings on Fenspace have a techno-utopian bias.  The characters in the Fenspace stories don't.  The "Fenspace Infinities" story Archimedes Lever, about a Nanoclasm, that's a 'Singularity'.

Whether there are any AIs in it, for one thing.

Okay, this gets strange... in the first post you say that the humans
would most likely not notice anything happening? And now that maybe
there are no AIs involved?

My bad.  Context.  I should have quoted Dartz preceding post.
The "Singularity later" faction is definitely (if not mostly) AI, I was inquiring about the "Singularity sooner" faction.
That said, I don't know "Eclipse Phase" (I have its wiki page open in a tab), but there is a lot of science fiction last fifteen years on this subject.
You don't build a 'firewall', you look for trends, academic publications, resources going to certain places; "follow the money" can be a very instructive activity.  The Hacker Underspace do all this to hamper Boskone - might this be done to slow the Singularity?
I wouldn't be at all surprised if the AIs have had to swat a rogue AI or two, trying to hack the interweave, or going for a Singularity take-off.  But, this sort of story likely wouldn't have much human involvement, and, Fenspace is (mostly) about stories about humans.
So, part of the idea is that the AIs might internally self-police.
--
"It is the business of the future to be dangerous" - Hawkwind

[HRogge]

One thing, please DO NOT USE HTML in the forum... it makes creating quoted responses a hell.

[Ace Dreamer]

I just used the forum defaults, and the 'link' tool. Plus the 'quote' tool, above the edit box.

I didn't hand-craft any HTML.

Sorry, I didn't know there was something you were supposed to avoid.

Seemed to work OK for me when I was quoting stuff.
I'm using "Firefox 12.0" - all looks OK; has something bad happened?
Looks OK with "Opera 11", too.
--
"It is the business of the future to be dangerous" - Hawkwind

[HRogge]

Singularity is capitalised. You might know, on a meta level, that the writings on Fenspace have a techno-utopian bias. The characters in the Fenspace stories don't. The "Fenspace Infinities" story Archimedes Lever, about a Nanoclasm, that's a 'Singularity'.

I know what "Singularity" means... and just between you and me, I think Dee had multiple of them. Go off through the roof with the tech development, then hit a new slow-development area... until you get to the next accelerator.

"Archimedes Lever" is one of the "funny but not cannon" Fenspace-Infinity stories...

It's been made clear, in a number of cases, that AIs have plenty of time to think. If you know that talking about something is very likely to help end the fun that is Fenspace, you are likely to be cautious. Singularity Club might be a bit short on any plans, except "try and make the Singularity later, not sooner", and similar for other extinction level possibilities. Of course there will be stuff posted, but, is it anything but conspiracy theory?

Most AIs in Fenspace are just like digital people...

I wouldn't be at all surprised if the AIs have had to swat a rogue AI or two, trying to hack the interweave, or going for a Singularity take-off. But, this sort of story likely wouldn't have much human involvement, and, Fenspace is (mostly) about stories about humans.

I think Fenspace had more trouble with human(oid) Mads than with AIs... seems AIs are the more sane people in Fenspace.

----

Cortana: "Singularity later? Singularity sooner? I am for a slow Singularity now... *blink*."

[HRogge]

I just used the forum defaults, and the 'link' tool. Plus the 'quote' tool, above the edit box.

I didn't hand-craft any HTML.

Sorry, I didn't know there was something you were supposed to avoid.

Seemed to work OK for me when I was quoting stuff.
I'm using "Firefox 12.0" - all looks OK; has something bad happened?

Its just that if you "quote" an HTML posting, it gets messed up and difficult to edit because you just see the raw quotes. Using the non-html mode is much easier to edit.

(edit)Maybe we should move this technical discussion to a different thread.

[Ace Dreamer]

Singularity
is capitalised. You might know, on a meta level, that the writings on
Fenspace have a techno-utopian bias. The characters in the Fenspace
stories don't. The "Fenspace Infinities" story Archimedes Lever, about a
Nanoclasm, that's a 'Singularity'.

I know what "Singularity" means... and just between you and me, I think
Dee had multiple of them. Go off through the roof with the tech
development, then hit a new slow-development area... until you get to
the next accelerator.

"Archimedes Lever" is one of the "funny but not cannon" Fenspace-Infinity stories...

You can have as many private 'singularities' as you like, it's having a 'Singularity' that wrecks the playground for everyone else that I think causes concern.  Yes, I was pretty sure you knew what a Singularity was.  I was just making sure there was a clear distinction for anyone reading this. [grin]
I'd realised the non-canonicity, but I thought the story relevant.

It's been made clear, in a number of cases, that AIs have
plenty of time to think. If you know that talking about something is
very likely to help end the fun that is Fenspace, you are likely to be
cautious. Singularity Club might be a bit short on any plans, except
"try and make the Singularity later, not sooner", and similar for other
extinction level possibilities. Of course there will be stuff posted,
but, is it anything but conspiracy theory?

Most AIs in Fenspace are just like digital people...

But think a lot faster...
If you're communicating with non-AIs that almost certainly gives you a chance to think about what you are saying before it comes out your communicator.  If you're smart and don't want to freak the humans, it's likely you'll make a lot of what you say sound spontaneous, though.
Of course, some AIs on low-grade hardware (waved old smartphones?) might not be actually capable of thinking any faster than humans...

I wouldn't be at all surprised if the AIs have had to swat a
rogue AI or two, trying to hack the interweave, or going for a
Singularity take-off. But, this sort of story likely wouldn't have much
human involvement, and, Fenspace is (mostly) about stories about
humans.

I think Fenspace had more trouble with human(oid) Mads than with AIs... seems AIs are the more sane people in Fenspace.

Maybe faster thinking keeps you saner?  Or, if you're unsane, means you go totally off the rails really quick?
--
"It is the business of the future to be dangerous" - Hawkwind

[Bob Schroeck]

 Sorry, I didn't know there was something you were supposed to avoid.

There isn't, at least as far as I'm concerned.  Anything else is a personal preference.
-- Bob
---------
Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.

[KJ]

Well, this is fascinating.  If only there were some friendly weakly-godlike post-singularity AIs around to help you with it or something.

[Ace Dreamer]

Well, this is fascinating.  If only there were some friendly weakly-godlike post-singularity AIs around to help you with it or something.

Well, if there were, and they were keeping their heads down, how could you tell?
--
"It is the business of the future to be dangerous" - Hawkwind

[robkelk]

Its just that if you "quote" an HTML posting, it gets messed up and difficult to edit because you just see the raw quotes.

If you know http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Guide/]how to read raw HTML, this isn't an issue...
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."

- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012

[Bob Schroeck]

Well, this is fascinating.  If only there were some friendly weakly-godlike post-singularity AIs around to help you with it or something.

Well, if there were, and they were keeping their heads down, how could you tell?

As a college friend of mine, now in the CS Department at Purdue, said thirty or so years ago about a then-favorite program of his, "If you were an incredible AI program and didn't want to be noticed, wouldn't you pretend to be an editor?"
-- Bob
---------
Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.

[robkelk]

Well, this is fascinating.  If only there were some friendly weakly-godlike post-singularity AIs around to help you with it or something.

Well, if there were, and they were keeping their heads down, how could you tell?

You couldn't, without a lot of detective work and a lot of luck.

Maybe somebody should form a group to look for this sort of AI. We could call it... oh, "Singularity Club", maybe..
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."

- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012

[HRogge]

Person 1: "Now we just need to contact one of those really powerful AIs, so it can help us to keep an eye on potential Singularity candidates."

Person 2: "Good idea, how do we do this?"

Computer: *BING* "You have got mail."

Person 1: "An anonymous mail... its says 'Sorry, I am not interested.' "

Person 2: "Lets forget about it and get a drink... I need it."

[KJ]

Okay, to be more frank or something and OOCly, I can certainly see something like this cropping up. Dee, as a friendly weakly-godlike post-singularity AI who's spending a good chunk of her processing power on preparing for what would seem to humans as Outside Context Problems (or maybe not; how are we going to understand?) and mostly keeping quiet about it, is just probably really quite amused by the whole thing, and possibly may go to the effort of finagling an invite at some point.

[Ace Dreamer]

Okay, to be more frank or something and OOCly, I can certainly see something like this cropping up. Dee, as a friendly weakly-godlike post-singularity AI who's spending a good chunk of her processing power on preparing for what would seem to humans as Outside Context Problems (or maybe not; how are we going to understand?) and mostly keeping quiet about it, is just probably really quite amused by the whole thing, and possibly may go to the effort of finagling an invite at some point.

Puzzled e-mail in reply.
"We thought you realised you were already a member?"
[grin]
--
"It is the business of the future to be dangerous" - Hawkwind