University of Michigan-Dearborn plans foot-washing stations
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University of Michigan-Dearborn plans foot-washing stations
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I'm curious what the athiest of the discussion board think of this?
------------------ www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.../706050368 ------------------ howard melton
I'd have to look deeper into the issue to say, truthfully. The point that student fees are paying for it is a good one, as is the point that they are not only for Muslim use; the point that there aren't similar facilities for use of students of other religions is also a good one.
In general, I don't think I'd disapprove, for the same reason I supported the prayer rooms which were available at the university I attended - I don't feel that it violates separation of Church and State to make it possible and comfortable for people to practice their religion of choice, so long as one isn't unduly favoured or mandated over others (including mandating any religious observances as all). That being said, since its indisputable that the foot baths are primarily for Muslim use, I could see a valid argument that Muslim students could have paid a small extra fee to finance and maintain them. Eh, the only way to have a really informed opinion would be to study up on the legalities of the situation, however. Quote:I don't think that would work out very well. If it was mandatory, they could (probably legitimately) say they were being fined for their religion. And if it was voluntary... well, that usually doesn't seem to work well. Maybe they should be coin-operated. Except then some people would go back to sticking their feet in the sink. '.' While I think I'd probably be willing to kick a religion out of the meme pool just for having a requirement like this, I can't really bring myself to care about this issue. -Morgan. "Sasage ya sasage ya koto no magatama ya Iyase ya iyase ya kashiri towa ni ma ni" -EXEC_RIG=VEDA, Ar Tonelico"Mikuru-chan molested me! I'm... so happy!" -Haruhi, "The Ecchi of Haruhi Suzumiya" ---(Not really)
your arcane rituals created to please your imaginary god have no place in an institute of education, or indeed, in any public facility. They should be provided for and by your particular cult, not by the public.
Refusal to restrict religious observance does not imply financial support of religious activities, damnit!Wire Geek - Burning the weak and trampling the dead since 1979Wire Geek - Burning the weak and trampling the dead since 1979
I don't feel trying to out-hostile the religious really helps out anybody.
It's one thing when things inimical to modern society are practiced, such as stoning of women. Things which hurt nobody are something else entirely. Nobody from the university even complained about this, a point which is worth repeating. It is not an unreasonable thing for Muslims to have facilities in their public facilities that are essential to the practice of their religion, any more than it is for Sikhs to carry kirpans in areas weapons are normally not allowed. The question is more how exactly this should have been done, not if it should have been done. Muslim students were going to wash their feet anyways, and it's not terribly sanitary or tidy for them to do it in the sink. I don't feel it would have been impossible to raise the money through a voluntary appeal. Many things have been built through voluntary appeal to university students and their families, especially via means of optional student fees.
Practical considerations.
The overhead of separating out the fee for just certain students would have probably cost more than the pricetag for the entire thing. At 10'000$ distributed over more than 8000 students comes to just over a dollar per student, spread that over 4 years and no-one is going to notice the 50 or so cent they paid for it per year. Most people would even pay 50 cents per year just to keep peoples feet out of the sink, and in that way it can even be seen as a fee for that. Also I'm sure the other religions on campus also get some conessions, such as room for the bible study group to meet or something similar, and considering what room rentals cost, esspecially for weekly meetings over the course of a year. If each religion gets a roughly equal share of consessions based on how many students there are of each then you ould even say it's fair, but the university doesn't trak student religions. Finnaly there is the cost of exclusion, preventing certain people from using the devie would have a rather high cost, wheras allowing everybody to use it is heaper, and much like other things with a high cost of exclusion it makes sense to fund it through the comunity as a whole. (The canonical example for a high cost of exclusion is national defense, the cost involved with excluding one person from that would cost an astronomical sum, while when just charging everybody it is actually quite reasonable per person cost.) E: "Did they... did they just endorse the combination of the JSDF and US Army by showing them as two lesbian lolicons moving in together and holding hands and talking about how 'intimate' they were?" B: "Have you forgotten so soon? They're phasing out Don't Ask, Don't Tell."
I dont particularly like the idea. Feet in sinks might not be something everyone likes to see, but it is a sink; there is soap. The hygiene issues are minimal only the perception is not. Using the sink encourages stretching; always good. Now, I do like the idea of inclusiveness in the use of foot baths. If they are indeed for everyone; a telling argument to be sure; I would like to see multiple groups use them for their intended purpose. Infidels for clean little piggies (this little piggie went a swimming.) Homosexuals for glistening insteps. Lesbians for Pedal Freshness. Pastafarians for pristine pegs-legs. Christians for new testament cosplay (Every week is Wash Jesuss feet week.)
Now, if all of these disparate groups can share these foot washing stations, like the communal watering hole; then more power to them. But let me be the first to say, I have my doubts.
Again Thanks
You cleared up my thoughts on this considerably. Some of the university's arguments sounded almost reasonable at first glance especially when I tried seperating out my own personal biases. Here are my views. Personally I can't see the university giving any money for the project. Donations earmarked specifically for these foot wash stations would be fine. At my old university I believe that's how the Southern Baptist chapel and meeting building was built and is maintained. The muslim foot in the sink not being clean seems to be an almost racist statement and is silly reasoning especially if said foot is washed 5 times a day. A foot usually inside a shoe the majority of the time is almost certainly cleaner than a person's hands. Don't they know hands are a major vector for the distribution of sickness? I wish students would wash thier hands 5 times a day, even if it was in a sink just used to wash his or someone elses feet. This foot in the sink excuse is really reaching, unless the students are breaking the sinks off the wall in which case they need to punish the students by making them pay for the damage. Why can't these students carry a small plastic wash trays. I've seen churches that keep a few dozen such trays for the rare foot washing service. They are about as wide, thick and long as most calculas books and are just big enough to hold one large or two small feet. Using the excuse that it's coming out of student "fees" and it's the student's money is hypocrisy in the extreme. A student "fee" was never actually a seperate fund otherwise the student council would have access and control over how these student "fees" are spent and not the campus administrators. Student "fees" being the students is a accounting fiction designed to make the administration of a university feel good about themselves as they use the money to support thier pet projects in the name of the students. Using the Students "fees" really makes me cringe and sets off resentful memories against my own university administration and the large amounts of "Fees" collected and then spent on the pet projects of Football and Basketball. When I was attending the local university they had a large number of extra "Fees" that were not mentioned in any advertised or posted calculation of tuition cost. I tried for better than 10 years as a single semester a year part time student to predict these "fees" and never succeeded. I always had at least a 100 dollars above and beyond what I'd calculated from published billing calculation procedures. At my university I remember seeing and paying often every semester a "Entertainment Fee", "Lab Building Use Fee","Maintenance fee", "Library Fee", "Museum fee" and a "Parking Fee". These so called student "fees" were never fairly spent with upwards of 80%(Proven in a minor campus scandal that changed nothing.) was always given to the Sports department so that it "ALWAYS SHOWS A PROFIT!" in spite of the lavish spending of the basketball and Football teams. As an example the student Parking Fees only ever seemed to add parking at the Football stadium and Gym which are just over 2 miles from the from the nearest campus class room or lab. I suspect these foot washing stations are a pet project of administrators "grossed out" by the thought of a muslim's foot in a sink he or she might wash thier hands in. howard melton
Just a quick follow up.
The UCLA doesn't mind the college spending it's tax dollars on Muslem foot washers. ----------------- freedomofphiladelphia.com/?p=268 -----------------
Virulent hatred of the ACLU is about the most pathetic thing in the American political scene, and that's saying a lot.
/QUOTE/
Virulent hatred of the ACLU is about the most pathetic thing in the American political scene, and that's saying a lot. /ENDQUOTE/ NO! The most virulent and pathetic thing in american politics is when people openly celebrate the death of another american with a different belief and political view and gleefully proclaim they would like to dance on that person's grave. What bothers me about the ACLU's decision to ignore this case isn't the rather thin money trail the article in the link I posted presented, it's the bigotry and small mindedness of the ACLU if it isn't money talking. I personally feel that ACLU's decision to ignore this case isn't about money it's about the fact that the lawyers would rather "lose" a case by abstaining than be on the same side as thier "enemies" the conservatives and christians. My views rarely mesh with the ACLU's views on cases and interpretation of the constitution, but when they do conincide I don't hesitate to make public my support of the ACLU in those cases. I've made conservatives friends mad for that support, but I feel ti would be rather bigoted and small minded to change my view on an issue simply because a group or person I don't like also happens to supports those view. For all ACLU's proclaimation of fighting bigotry and bias in American law it's sad to see them make a decision that appears to be based on thier own pet bias or bigotry. howard melton Quote:Yes. I stand by my statement and everything it implies. The thought processes of the people who support torture are more sympathetic, and god knows I have extremely little sympathy for them. The ACLU has fought for conservative and Christian rights (including people as despicable as the Phelps family), and for you to ignore that is, to me, contemptible. The ACLU is not about "left" and "right". If you find the ACLU tends to more often be defending constitutional rights of those you consider associated with the "left", then you should take a long, hard look at yourself and ask why that is. That's all I have to say on the matter.
I'm not seeing where this virulent hatred is that you're becoming upset about...
-Morgan, says "Down with javascript menus!""Mikuru-chan molested me! I'm... so happy!" -Haruhi, "The Ecchi of Haruhi Suzumiya" ---(Not really)
In the page he linked to.
... I don't see it. '.'
-Morgan, wishes ezboard didn't keep logging her out...
Ayiekie
I have to disagree with your stance about the web page I linked to, I don't see hatred. I do see anger and that anger is leading to them implying that the ACLU is cowardly and more worried more about losing Moslem donations than doing what is right. I think your own protective bias for the ACLU and your bias against conservatives, christians and possibly all religions is driving you to make the same mistake a link on the webpage I pointed to made. Like the link within the webpage you have brought something else into the thread that isn't directly related and then unfairly used that to build up to a statement that ultimately ends with a highly biased and unfair claim. The ACLU has 1000's if not tens of thousands of donars and contributers and yet one of the Links picks the extreme example of the moslem's donating money to the ACLU and used that to make a biased and unfair claim. The ACLU has probably been involved in 1000's if not tens of thousands of cases and yet you picked an extreme example and then used it's absence from my statements to make a biased and unfair claim. Like the ACLU I think your letting a bias you have not recognized control your reasoning. howard melton Quote:.... Quote: Quote: Quote:Yeah, nothing there at all but an "implication". I continue to stand by my statement.
This page and some of the things linked to there might be interesting.
-Morgan, may comment more later, when reading CCS fanfic doesn't seem more important. '.'"Mikuru-chan molested me! I'm... so happy!" -Haruhi, "The Ecchi of Haruhi Suzumiya" ---(Not really)
Well given the choice between reading CCS fanfic and further commenting on the links you provided to Jesus fanfic, I think you made the right choice. For fun, read through the articles posted and replace Christian with Wiccan, God with Thor, and Jesus with the Tooth Fairy. Thats how the arguments look to those not sharing a common faith. Those who dont rely of faith (belief without evidence) dont need this substitution.
I disagree with the decision concerning footbaths. However the link did provide a piece of information that was previously absent from the discourse. For the moment, purge your thoughts of imaginary friends; whether these are Judeo-Christian, Islamic, Norse or Pastafaric. The issue at hand was feet in a sink - and the result of feet in a sink - which was two-fold - clean feet and water splashed on the floor. The water on the floor was a safety issue - clean feet, to my knowledge, were not. The solution goes too far. A mop in the corner would solve the problem as readily; and have not a jot of religious significance unless you happen to worship mops (with an inevitable schism by broomists). I found the article from freedomofphiladephia to be an exercise in fear mongering, including that always fun word Islamification. Any erosion of the boundary between state and church any church is to be fought; whether Islamic, Christian, Pastafarian, or any other festive variation of faith. There is no god**; and in the uniquely improbable case that there is a god; there is no fucking way that a bunch of primitive meat-sacks somehow know the mind of that god. The holy texts from the Pentarch to the Synoptics, the Quran to the Book of Mormon, the Book of Law to the Gospel of the Flying Spaghetti monster were written by these meat sacks. They were not revealed from a higher power; they were brought about by meat sacks with agendas. Those agendas are varied from tribal identity to wanting an excuse for porking other mens wives; but they are the agendas of meat sacks; not the desires of an omnipotent, omniscient, being/beings who moves in strange and staggeringly inefficient ways. Even worse, these meat sack agendas have not aged well as they are all products of the limited regions that they emerged from. The excuses for these are often banal from the inanity of the Satanic verses found within Islam to the pathetic excuses from the Christianities C.S. Lewis and Behe are nice example of these. It all comes down to belief without evidence. Shayne ** There is no evidence for the existence of god any god. If you think you have real evidence of god talk to the Templeton Foundation. You can be rich.
The main point was really supposed to be the list of times where the ACLU has been on the side of Christians on an issue, something the Freedom of Philadelphia doesn't seem to believe possible.
I'm not sure whether their position on this issue is really consistent or not. *shrug* Oh, while I'm at it, how about the entire article from the Detroit News? -Morgan, is the kind of person who imagines Tomoyo kicking Eriol off a roof..."Mikuru-chan molested me! I'm... so happy!" -Haruhi, "The Ecchi of Haruhi Suzumiya" ---(Not really) 
Afternoon everyone. I'm the writer from Freedom of Philadelphia and saw the links so wanted to jump in on the discussion here. I'm going to try and respond to a few people at once, and well since it's my first post here so if I screw up anyone's names please forgive me.
Ayiekie I don't have a "violent hatred" against the ACLU. What I am against is the hypocrisy of the ACLU. While they have worked many many times for the separation of Christianity/Judaism from public schools or even Universities that accept public funding they suddenly flip gears when Islam is concerned. I'm agnostic myself so this isn't about religion for me, but rather equality or balance. Don't be against religion in schools when it's Christianity then be ok with Islam. While you are correct that there have been times that ACLU has supported Christianity, the sum balance of their work has been against it, even when doing so contradicts previous stances by them. To say that the ACLU is neither left nor right is to ignore the body of their work. In addition the amount of funding received through Soros led/funded initiatives is mind boggling. If you read deeper into my page you will see that I've been anti-anything soros quite often. I found it highly ironic that in a situation where the ACLU is normally against Judaic-Christian faiths they suddenly back down and use a hygiene issue as their escape clause. Rev Dark I totally agree that a mop would of been a worthwhile and much more efficient solution. Perhaps even throw in 10 more dollars and post a "wet floor" sign for safety's sake. On a side note, there were those that mentioned they would have no problem with this if the foot baths were communal i.e. available to any faith. However, if you look into the nature of Islam (a rather stringent and inflexible cult evidenced by it's lack of growth over the last 700 years or so) you would realize that it would not be acceptable to share a basin with Jews or even Christians, since they are "infidel" to them. I myself would have less of a problem if it was communal. Finally, think about this for just a moment. A baptismal bath would not be acceptable on the grounds of the school, and in many cases neither would a chapel. What's really at issue is this, it's either acceptable to have religion interspersed with our campuses or it is not. For the ACLU to pick and choose which religious functions are ok for campuses is hypocrisy. On a final note, the Muslim community was ready to pay for the foot baths themselves but decided not to when the ACLU said it wasn't going to sue the school. At least they could of paid and saved the school the money. Thanks for the frank yet polite discussion I've seen here. I'll have to try and make it a point to come back more often. Logan
Oh please.
Your opinion's are... very apparent in your writing. Every time you refer to Islam its in a derogatory or malicious manner. You cherry pick your arguments and dismiss the contradictory evidence. There are plenty of examples of the ACLU defending Christian and Jewish rights and to say otherwise is... pathetic and dishonest in the extreme. You can't even get through your post here without including an insulting, innaccurate and inflammatory aside in your post! ----------------- Epsilon Quote:"Just brick by brick these people work on dismantling what is and was America.". Quote:Neither would a sacred altar where they sacrifice goats to YHWH, nor would an Oracle with resident Pythoness. It's a good thing the facilities in question are not explicitly religious and thus your comparisons to baptismal baths are needlessly inflammatory and ill-thought-out. But then... Quote:...that's just par for the course for you, isn't it?
Epsilon, I'm curious what you are referring to about my "insulting, innaccurate and inflammatory aside in your post'. If it was referring to Islam as a cult, well I make no apologies for my disdain of islam, I even wrote a piece comparing it to a cult. I think it's a horrific and barbaric "religion" that has yet to outgrow any of it's more savage tendencies. Christianity once was a very violent religion/cult but at least you can point to it outgrowing it. As to the ACLU, yes they have defended Christian-Judaism at times, but as I said look at the entire body of their work and you will see that they are much more against those 2 religions, now if they had the same level of antagonism against Islam I could support the consistency. If you look over the whole of their work you will see that the ACLU is probably the largest censor of freedom of religion in the nation. Once again I say that I'm not a religious person but yet I do believe that religious freedom is one of our most precious freedoms. I care not if you worship allah, yaweh, christ, buddha, of even the flying spaghetti monster, just I care that you have the freedom of choice in what you worship. The ACLU through their actions have not been equal in their desire to try and separate church and state.
Do you honestly think that a chapel or baptismal pool on that campus would garner the same level of non-involvement from the ACLU?
The baths in question are for Muslims to wash their feet before they pray. They are not for any other purpose. That does make them explicitly for religious purposes. I'm quite sure the soccer team will not be allowed to wash their feet there! Yes I do believe the ACLU is dismantling this country, once upon a time they were a viable and great organization. However, it is my belief, that they are now going too far in some of the things they are against. This is not really their fault or the fault of anyone. Many watchdog groups etc. eventually reach a point of diminishing returns and start to go much further then what their original mandate was.
I can see that I've upset some regular posters here and that was not my desire at all. I saw a discussion of something I wrote and thought I would join in. Enjoy your forums, I'll keep my unwelcome comments out of it. ![[Image: smile.gif]](http://www.ezboard.com/intl/aenglish/images/emoticons/smile.gif)
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