Good-bye, England, we loved you well...

[ECSNorway]

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I could not agree more with your last post if I tried. Yes, of course, moslems are an alien body in our midst. Every day in London - on the tube, in shops, in parks, whilst shopping, whilst going about the 101 tasks that make up an average life - this is borne in on me.
In London today moslems dress differently, are rude to locals, jump queues, shout at us, wave their fists at us, call us worthless infidel in public and in loud voices. I have, just four days ago, been elbowed aside by a moslem couple, with sidekicks, whilst trying to top up my Oyster card at a tube station at the automatic machine. Apparently, I had taken longer than the ten seconds that they were prepared to wait and so three burly males forced me aside and, when I objected, pushed me to the floor and - quite literally - and took over the machine which I was attempting to use.
Not, in a crowded and impatient city like London that this was a surprise, but that in this instance that I was insulted by these people was a surprise. The eldest male in the group, dressed in the usual and ridiculous garb of mohammedans everywhere, looked directly at me amd said, in quite clear English, (and I quote verbatim) Get out of our way infidel slave.
You may imagine how I felt at that moment. To be so insulted in my own capital city was stunning. It took all my self-control not to do something rash at that moment.
Knowing that CCTV cameras would have captured this incident I complained, some three hours later (after having completed my journey and return), to the British Transport Police on the Broadway. I need not have bothered. Not only would no-one there take my complaint of technical assault and insult seriously but no-one to whom I spoke was even prepared to initiate any paperwork whatsoever nor were they remotely prepared to find and look at the video recordings. Indeed, one Officer even said to me that I should swallow my pride and live with it because - and, once again, I quote verbatim you are just being racist and you have to remember that its cultural with them.
Obviously, at this point, I indicated that I felt that I had been physically assaulted and that I would really like to have my complaint investigated. Well, this is really where everything about that evening begins to stick in my craw. When I said that, the Officer of the BTP who was listening to me actually cautioned me and warned me that if I persisted with making a nuisance of myself I would be charged under the The Race Relations Act 1976 and the RRAA (Race Relations (Amendment) Act) 2000.
I gave up at this point. Cowardice is sometimes the better part of valour. But, damn it, they won, didnt they? I have been intimidated into a dhimmi position by them and the very powers which should have protected me in my own country.
Happy New Year everyone, I say in a bitter tone of voice.
Dominic.

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So let me get this straight.
Three big burly guys come up and slap someone around, right in front of police cameras, and when he complains to said police, they threaten to arrest him. For the racist hate crime of being upset that he was attacked by someone who just happens to be Muslim.
Time for Box Number Three... oh, wait. You guys outlawed that one. Whoops.--
"I give you the beautiful... the talented... the tirelessly atomic-powered...
R!
DOROTHY!
WAYNERIGHT!
--
Sucrose Octanitrate.
Proof positive that with sufficient motivation, you can make anything explode.

[Jinx999]

Can you give me a source for this?

[CattyNebulart]

It does sound a little out there...
E: "Did they... did they just endorse the combination of the JSDF and US Army by showing them as two lesbian lolicons moving in together and holding hands and talking about how 'intimate' they were?"
B: "Have you forgotten so soon? They're phasing out Don't Ask, Don't Tell."

[hmelton]

I don't know where the story that started this thread was found, but here is some video and articles about what's being taught in the Mosque in England.
A set of reporters took hidden cameras into supposedly moderate mosque in England and taped the preaching and speakers along with collecting printed material and DVDs.
---------------------
brain-terminal.com/posts/...in-britain
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Edited: Removed a "roll eyes" smile somehow include in the paste of the URL.
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observer.guardian.co.uk/u...30,00.html
---------------------------
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www.shinesforall.com/2007...atche.html
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I'd like to know the starting stories source, but I also believe what was describe is very possible from personal experience.
The first incident happened in 1984 the second day of classes in my first semester of attending a university the first time.
I arrived very early for my second class of Logic and this time placed myself by a friend who shared several of my classes.
The professor had not assigned seats and I was one seat off from where I had been in the first class.
The first I knew of a problem was when this Arab student started screaming at me in Arabic and slamming his hands on the desk I was sitting in.
He screamed at me mostly in Arabic for what I was later told was over a minute and then finally in accented, but quite good english yelled about me taking his clearly choosen seat.
I remember shrugging and moving back a seat.
After which he placed his books and took the seat and I thought it strange he was willing to turn his back to me.
At the time I personally thought he was high, but later found out he wasn't.
I will note half the class didn't show up that day and the professor was late coming in to class.
Report it?
You must be joking the Saudi Center was supplying MILLIONS of dollars to a southern university.
New local students were given orientation lectures and warnings that spent quite a bit of time explaining that we better not anger or insult the Saudi's.
A semester later he apologized for the names he had called me and partially explained his reasons for the incident.
In his terms I had no right as an infidel to take the seat he had clearly picked in the previous class.
I was a infidel worth only serving him, taking his seat was an afront to his place before allah.
Why did he become my friend? He later mentioned that I didn't back down, didn't look scared and didn't seem to hold his actions against him in class.

Was I scared YES!.
I clearly remember palming a pencil from a pocket and getting a firm grip on the neck of the lite jacket I'd just taken off.
I also remember the relief when I didn't see a weapon and was quite relieved that in spite angry look and the shouting and slamming of hands he was now backing away from me shouting and waving empty hands.
Thinking he was High I treated him like I would any half stoned bully from my highschool days and held my ground ready to act, but trying to not to give hint of what that action would be.
(Yes I'd had some martial arts training mostly focused on self defense.)
He was one of the Arabs friends that eventually mentioned to me about the extreme hatred and contempt many moslems have for anyone that isn't moslem.
At the time I was to nieve to really understand.
The second incident occurred a couple of years later just before I dropped out of the university for a few years to work.
I was renting a room, while I attended the university. The woman's husband I had rented from had once been our churches pastor before moving to the town with the University.
One night the pastor's wife a head nurse of over 20 years experience came in so mad she could chew nails and I noticed a little scared under the anger.
I was unused to seeing her scared the Pastor had also been a retired Paroll officer and his wife had years of personal experience with jails, prisons and dangerous men and situations.(I think she had worked a few years as a nurse in a jail or prison before going to work for a doctor.)
I found out from her what happened a few weeks later.
This is what I was told.
A Saudi Arabian from the local campus Saudi Center came in and had a checkup before heading back to Saudi Arabia.
The doctor finished the examination and the Pastor's wife who had been the Doctor's head nurse for over 15 years came in to deliver a message.
The Doctor left to act on the message and she remained to finish the paperwork.
The Saudi Arabian sitting on the examination table on the other side of the room dropped his billfold at some point during the paper work and said "WOMAN!" very LOUDLY and pointed at the billfold.
When she returned to the paperwork instead of picking up his billfold the man said "WOMAN!" again when she continued the paperwork he rose and started at her with a look that she said angered her.
(It also scared her but she didn't say that you could see it that day and the day she told me what happened.)
Another doctor at the clinic came in before the man reached her and the Saudi Arabian pulled up short.
The Pastor's wife describe the look as being comparable to a very angry man about to whip a dog.
In my second try at the university in the early 1990's I described the incident to a fellow Arab engineering student who had become a good friend and engineering study partner.(I was introduced to him by the Saudi Arabian from the first incident above.)
He told me that it was within the man's right to whip the woman for disobeying him and it happened regularly in his country and other Moslem nations.
In fact the law would have been likely to do the whipping for him in Saudi Arabia.
I don't believe the Arab friend who explained was from Saudi Arabia, but from one of the nearby nations.
On another note most of the Mosque mentioned above in the report from England were put in by the Saudi Arabians, which is the same group who had a Mosque near my university in 1984, in the early 1990's when I returned and it still exist there today.
I would not be surprise to find the same messages preached there as are being taped with hidden cameras in England.

howard melton
God bless

[Kokuten]

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In his terms I had no right as an infidel to take the seat he had clearly picked in the previous class.
I was a infidel worth only serving him, taking his seat was an afront to his place before allah.

---

Third Box.
And we're the Bad People for angering filth like this.Wire Geek - Burning the weak and trampling the dead since 1979Wire Geek - Burning the weak and trampling the dead since 1979

[CattyNebulart]

Sigh, there are times where I truly balieve the saying "Organized religions are Evil." This is one of those times. I have known plenty of perfectly nice religious people, but some (most?) are a little (or very) crazy, such as the muslim in your example.
E: "Did they... did they just endorse the combination of the JSDF and US Army by showing them as two lesbian lolicons moving in together and holding hands and talking about how 'intimate' they were?"
B: "Have you forgotten so soon? They're phasing out Don't Ask, Don't Tell."

[Ayiekie]

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In his terms I had no right as an infidel to take the seat he had clearly picked in the previous class.
I was a infidel worth only serving him, taking his seat was an afront to his place before allah.

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Assholes aren't created by religion, dude. Any religion. Religion, like politics, is an excuse for people who would act like assholes anyway.
I'm sorry you've had bad anecdotal experiences, but that's all they are - anecdotal experiences. I live in a building with tons of Middle Eastern Muslims. They're friendly and polite and hold doors for people. They complain about the crappy elevators just like everyone else. The women chat freely, just like everyone else.
My anecdotal experience doesn't prove that all Muslims are peaceful fun-loving people. Your experience doesn't prove anything, either, other than the fact that I know some nice people, and you know some assholes.
Granted, that may not have been the point you were trying to make, but if not, consider that some people - like Kokuten - are clearly quite willing and happy to draw that conclusion from what you said.

[Kokuten]

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Granted, that may not have been the point you were trying to make, but if not, consider that some people - like Kokuten - are clearly quite willing and happy to draw that conclusion from what you said.

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I'd like to expand a little - I'm not against muslims, well, any less than I'm against christians or liberals or conservatives or democrats. I'm dead-set against and in support of the destruction of people who set themselves above be because their god tells them to.
And guess what? There's no co-existing with a religious zealot whos god tells him that he should rule over you, except as a slave. There's no changing his mind, or his ways. You can only submit, or fight.
I don't believe that there will ever be a lasting peace on this world (relatively speaking, a state of 'no open war') until god is relegated to his place in the shaman's hut, respected but not worshipped.
I also don't believe that will ever occur. Enjoy your god-inspired frenzy of destruction.Wire Geek - Burning the weak and trampling the dead since 1979Wire Geek - Burning the weak and trampling the dead since 1979

[Ayiekie]

Kokuten, I'm an atheist. And I'll tell you again - assholes don't come from religion. Some things do, that can be bad or good, but people don't become good or bad due to the theological intricacies of what spiritual beings they believe (or don't believe) in.
The world would not become any sort of utopia if religion vanished tomorrow. I doubt there's so much as a single war anywhere in the world that would stop. Religion is an excuse for behaviour far more often than it's a cause of it.
Insofar as Hmelton's anecdotes go, it's a telling point that it concerned Saudis. Now, Saudi Arabia is an important American ally and has been so for many years. There is very little doubt of their loyalty to America, since America has been assisting in keeping the House of Saud in power for some time now (though they are not thrilled with the Iraq invasion, which seems poised to replace a fellow Sunni power on their doorstep with a Shiite one). However, Saudi Arabia has an enormous (relatively speaking) class of young men who are born to incredibly rich houses of privilige where they really have no need to do anything in their entire lives - as long as the gravy train keeps running, anyway. They are also often tutored in religious studies by extreme Wahhabis, whom the House of Saud invited into the role some decades ago as a political ploy.
This leads to two notable subgroups of young, wealthy Saudis. Some embrace their wealth and status and become (to the standards of many) lazy decadent socialites who travel over the world and never feel the need to do real work - the archetypal "Saudi prince". Some rebel against that same decadence, and the most obvious path to do so is by becoming religious extremists like their tutors, and holding particular notions on what being a Muslim entails, the status of women, et cetera. One of those particular young wealthy Saudi men was Osama bin Laden. So were most of the 9/11 hijackers.
Does this mean religion turned these young men, whom I suspect would include the ones H Melton had unfortunate encounters with, into assholes? Pshaw. Young, bored, wealthy men are a subgroup that has been producing revolutionaries and religious fanatics since the time of Ancient Egypt. This is not new. Yes, their religious influences might have shaped the particular specific things they are assholes about, but if you think it took a Wahabbist cleric to convince some young men their particular "group" is better than everyone else, then I recommend some sociology studies, stat. As well, I'm sure everyone here can think of some subgroups in their country that they would wince at being considered by an outsider as "what we're like"... though let's not mention which ones, for the sake of civil discussion.
But, of course, individuals are individuals. I'm not excusing the assholes you met. There's a young man I know that's an archetypal "Saudi prince"; his parents cover everything he does on a credit card they gave him, he wears incredibly fashionable clothes, and carries a gold cellphone. I know him because I work with him, because he wanted to get an honest job despite not needing one; also, he's a nice guy that has a "live and let live" attitude towards pretty much everybody. Individuals are individuals, regardless of demographic influence. Never, never forget that. To think otherwise is to dip straight into racism and bigotry.
To get into why I responded after your comment, Kokuten...
"And we're the Bad People for angering filth like this."
Think about the Arab that says exactly those words after hearing about Abu Ghraib, or Guantanamo Bay, or an American atrocity in Iraq, or hears an Ann Coulter speech.
Because those words, and the dismissive "they're not people like us" sentiments that underlie them, are causing a hell of a lot more death and suffering right now than every religion put together. And they will cause a hell of a lot more in the future, too.
Maybe you didn't mean that to come across that way. I certainly hope not.

[Kokuten]

oh boy.
I'm unhappy- now I have to go actually _think_.
off the cuff, though, I still hold to my statement that _they_ are not like _us_.
my They, though, I must admit, is "people who use their religion to be evil", not "wahhabist muslims" or "southern baptists"
As usual, the coin has two faces - I'm gonna have to ponder on both faces of this one before I have anything to say worth putting to paper.Wire Geek - Burning the weak and trampling the dead since 1979Wire Geek - Burning the weak and trampling the dead since 1979

[Black Aeronaut]

Religeon... It kinda depends. For one thing, it takes a strong persona to rebell against the environment one is raised in. IMHO, only the weak minded become extremists. Although, that's not to say that extremists aren't smart - quite the contrary, some are frighteningly inteligent. Be glad that terrorists don't always have access to the resources needed to truly make our lives interesting in the ancient Chinese sense.
If someone is raised in an environment where their supremacy over others is preached, then chances are that person will grow up thinking they're superior to everyone else.
Fortunately for us here in the US, there aren't too many extremists who live here on a permanent basis - most Muslims that I know of are perfectly nice people who don't think themselves any better than I am. Most that are extremists are only here because some of the better and more prestigious Colleges are here in the US. The extremists know that America is a place where equality is preached and, even though supremist groups exist, they can not get away with blatant assault on "Religious Grounds". Sorry folks, but hate crime is hate crime. If something like the incident in London had occured here in America those men would have at least spent an evening in the town pokey to think about who is and is not a slave.
I can put up with being called an infidel. I'm not of their religeon, ergo, I am one of the unwashed. But the first one that calls me a -slave- is gonna find out exactly how I feel about that.
That said, when I get out of the Navy I think I'll invest in one of the nice walking sticks they have at Cold Steel.

---

Black Aeronaut Technologies Group
Aerospace Solutions for the discerning spacer
"To the commissary we should go," Yoda declared firmly. "News
of this kind a danish requires."

---

[ECSNorway]

Well, Britain has clearly decided that they have something more important to do: Defining the act of allowing your children to become fat as child abuse.
Say Hello to the Fat Police--
"I give you the beautiful... the talented... the tirelessly atomic-powered...
R!
DOROTHY!
WAYNERIGHT!
--
Sucrose Octanitrate.
Proof positive that with sufficient motivation, you can make anything explode.

[Black Aeronaut]

Okay, when I first saw that, I was thinking something along the lines of OMFG... But then I read into a bit and found that they're talking about children who are suffering from health complications due to their obesity whose parents are doing diddly squat about. In cases like that, you could call it negligence.

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Black Aeronaut Technologies Group
Aerospace Solutions for the discerning spacer
"But first, let's test it on the penguin."
"Meep?" O.o

---

[Ayiekie]

Pish. You're not supposed to read the article, you're just supposed to be outraged at the headline. Or the made-up worse headline, even better.
BTW, ECSNorway, still waiting for your apology and official retraction on the Iran thing.

[Morganite]

FWIW, this seems to be the source of the original story:
www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmi...014639.php
-Morgan."I have no interest in ordinary humans. If there are any aliens, time travelers, or espers here, come sleep with me."
---From "The Ecchi of Haruhi Suzumiya"
-----(Not really)

[Black Aeronaut]

Sorry Ayiekie, but I like to try and seperate myself from the ravening mob out there.

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Black Aeronaut Technologies Group
Aerospace Solutions for the discerning spacer
"But first, let's test it on the penguin."
"Meep?" O.o

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