Kokuten, I'm an atheist. And I'll tell you again - assholes don't come from religion. Some things do, that can be bad or good, but people don't become good or bad due to the theological intricacies of what spiritual beings they believe (or don't believe) in.
The world would not become any sort of utopia if religion vanished tomorrow. I doubt there's so much as a single war anywhere in the world that would stop. Religion is an excuse for behaviour far more often than it's a cause of it.
Insofar as Hmelton's anecdotes go, it's a telling point that it concerned Saudis. Now, Saudi Arabia is an important American ally and has been so for many years. There is very little doubt of their loyalty to America, since America has been assisting in keeping the House of Saud in power for some time now (though they are not thrilled with the Iraq invasion, which seems poised to replace a fellow Sunni power on their doorstep with a Shiite one). However, Saudi Arabia has an enormous (relatively speaking) class of young men who are born to incredibly rich houses of privilige where they really have no need to do anything in their entire lives - as long as the gravy train keeps running, anyway. They are also often tutored in religious studies by extreme Wahhabis, whom the House of Saud invited into the role some decades ago as a political ploy.
This leads to two notable subgroups of young, wealthy Saudis. Some embrace their wealth and status and become (to the standards of many) lazy decadent socialites who travel over the world and never feel the need to do real work - the archetypal "Saudi prince". Some rebel against that same decadence, and the most obvious path to do so is by becoming religious extremists like their tutors, and holding particular notions on what being a Muslim entails, the status of women, et cetera. One of those particular young wealthy Saudi men was Osama bin Laden. So were most of the 9/11 hijackers.
Does this mean religion turned these young men, whom I suspect would include the ones H Melton had unfortunate encounters with, into assholes? Pshaw. Young, bored, wealthy men are a subgroup that has been producing revolutionaries and religious fanatics since the time of Ancient Egypt. This is not new. Yes, their religious influences might have shaped the particular specific things they are assholes about, but if you think it took a Wahabbist cleric to convince some young men their particular "group" is better than everyone else, then I recommend some sociology studies, stat. As well, I'm sure everyone here can think of some subgroups in their country that they would wince at being considered by an outsider as "what we're like"... though let's not mention which ones, for the sake of civil discussion.
But, of course, individuals are individuals. I'm not excusing the assholes you met. There's a young man I know that's an archetypal "Saudi prince"; his parents cover everything he does on a credit card they gave him, he wears incredibly fashionable clothes, and carries a gold cellphone. I know him because I work with him, because he wanted to get an honest job despite not needing one; also, he's a nice guy that has a "live and let live" attitude towards pretty much everybody. Individuals are individuals, regardless of demographic influence. Never, never forget that. To think otherwise is to dip straight into racism and bigotry.
To get into why I responded after your comment, Kokuten...
"And we're the Bad People for angering filth like this."
Think about the Arab that says exactly those words after hearing about Abu Ghraib, or Guantanamo Bay, or an American atrocity in Iraq, or hears an Ann Coulter speech.
Because those words, and the dismissive "they're not people like us" sentiments that underlie them, are causing a hell of a lot more death and suffering right now than every religion put together. And they will cause a hell of a lot more in the future, too.
Maybe you didn't mean that to come across that way. I certainly hope not.
The world would not become any sort of utopia if religion vanished tomorrow. I doubt there's so much as a single war anywhere in the world that would stop. Religion is an excuse for behaviour far more often than it's a cause of it.
Insofar as Hmelton's anecdotes go, it's a telling point that it concerned Saudis. Now, Saudi Arabia is an important American ally and has been so for many years. There is very little doubt of their loyalty to America, since America has been assisting in keeping the House of Saud in power for some time now (though they are not thrilled with the Iraq invasion, which seems poised to replace a fellow Sunni power on their doorstep with a Shiite one). However, Saudi Arabia has an enormous (relatively speaking) class of young men who are born to incredibly rich houses of privilige where they really have no need to do anything in their entire lives - as long as the gravy train keeps running, anyway. They are also often tutored in religious studies by extreme Wahhabis, whom the House of Saud invited into the role some decades ago as a political ploy.
This leads to two notable subgroups of young, wealthy Saudis. Some embrace their wealth and status and become (to the standards of many) lazy decadent socialites who travel over the world and never feel the need to do real work - the archetypal "Saudi prince". Some rebel against that same decadence, and the most obvious path to do so is by becoming religious extremists like their tutors, and holding particular notions on what being a Muslim entails, the status of women, et cetera. One of those particular young wealthy Saudi men was Osama bin Laden. So were most of the 9/11 hijackers.
Does this mean religion turned these young men, whom I suspect would include the ones H Melton had unfortunate encounters with, into assholes? Pshaw. Young, bored, wealthy men are a subgroup that has been producing revolutionaries and religious fanatics since the time of Ancient Egypt. This is not new. Yes, their religious influences might have shaped the particular specific things they are assholes about, but if you think it took a Wahabbist cleric to convince some young men their particular "group" is better than everyone else, then I recommend some sociology studies, stat. As well, I'm sure everyone here can think of some subgroups in their country that they would wince at being considered by an outsider as "what we're like"... though let's not mention which ones, for the sake of civil discussion.
But, of course, individuals are individuals. I'm not excusing the assholes you met. There's a young man I know that's an archetypal "Saudi prince"; his parents cover everything he does on a credit card they gave him, he wears incredibly fashionable clothes, and carries a gold cellphone. I know him because I work with him, because he wanted to get an honest job despite not needing one; also, he's a nice guy that has a "live and let live" attitude towards pretty much everybody. Individuals are individuals, regardless of demographic influence. Never, never forget that. To think otherwise is to dip straight into racism and bigotry.
To get into why I responded after your comment, Kokuten...
"And we're the Bad People for angering filth like this."
Think about the Arab that says exactly those words after hearing about Abu Ghraib, or Guantanamo Bay, or an American atrocity in Iraq, or hears an Ann Coulter speech.
Because those words, and the dismissive "they're not people like us" sentiments that underlie them, are causing a hell of a lot more death and suffering right now than every religion put together. And they will cause a hell of a lot more in the future, too.
Maybe you didn't mean that to come across that way. I certainly hope not.