How Doctors Got Into the Torture Business

[Ayiekie]

Time Article
Y'know, here's usually the time where I could say something witty, like, I dunno, titling the thread "SHOCK and ARGH", or perhaps commenting on how that biased liberal media, determined to believe their own country employs torturers no matter the evidence to the contrary, is at it again.
But some things make a man so goddamn angry, so goddamn bitter, so goddamn full of bile and disgust, that trying to make any sort of joke about them tastes like ashes.

[hmelton]

Your feeling of disgust, bile, bitterness and anger are based on only half an equation.
I won't tell you my view on the right or wrong of this torture, but before you judge the men involved think of the other side of the equation.
I wonder if the book will mention or give as much detail to the victims of these tortured men?
You hear of the victims everyday as cold numbers so that say so many people(men, women, children) killed at a market by a terror bomb or so many americans wounded by a road side explosive.
Did the doctor dwell on the horror of picking the shrapnel out of wounded americans or the old men, women and children bombed almost daily by these captured men?
The short blurb on the book makes it nearly impossible to judge the book, but for now it sounds like the book says nothing of the methods used by these captured terrorist that were tortured.
Imagine it was your best friend that died from a road side bomb or you had to go in and wade through the blood and body parts in a bombed market and pick out the parts of the explosive to determine if it was from a native dump or something new from outside?
Then ask yourself would you be able to resist that 40 degree temperature torture or perhaps something worse if it gave you a good chance of intercepting the next bomb headed for a market or the road side your other friends might be traveling down?

What would I do if I was put in that situation?
The American troops in Iraq are fighting horrible hateful humans that believe there death gives them paradise and seem to think nothing is wrong with the killing of women and children.
Torture and random murder for them is an accepted method to achieve thier goals.
I don't know what I'd do in that situation and I'm very thankful I'm not in the position of these doctors or other men that did what the doctors describe.
The blurb on the book only shows half an equation and you can't tell if the entire book is that biased.
Ask yourself where is your bile, anger, shock and disgust over the...(What was it I didn't check the news today? How many men, women and children were blown up today in a Iraq market or cafe?)
TORTURE RIGHT OR WRONG?
Again I won't go into the right or wrongness of what these doctors and american soldiers did and I won't tell you what emotions the short descriptions caused me to feel, it was after all only half an equation.
Given my reply you might think you can guess my view and emotions, but they were quite complex on this subject and would suprise you no matter what you guessed.
The one thing I can say is if you believe in god then pray for the american soldiers and pray for the hateful men blowing them up and murdering the civilians of Iraq.
howard melton
God bless

[Valles]

Yes, a lot of these people are monsters. The actions they choose to take, however horrible, are outside our control - but things done by those in uniform, in our name - and, let's not forget, for the sake of the selfish ambition of an irresponsible cadre of politicians! - are not.
Your 'other half of the equation' is the fluff text in a word problem - context completely aside from the decision.
Basic human fucking decency is something owed by one party, not to the other. What they've done, whether they deserve it, is entirely irrelevant.
If a guilty man walks free because of it, then no matter what he did or what he will do, I really can't think of a more justified risk to take.
As to my position on prayer... the belief in divinity is the delusion that the universe gives a flying fuck.
Ja, -n
(*too tired to be tactful*)

===============================================
"Puripuri puripuri... Bang!"

[Ayiekie]

There is no other half of an equation that justifies torture.
None. Ever.
I'm well aware what people can be driven to do under the terrible conditions American soldier undoubtedly endure in Iraq.
THIS IS WHY THERE IS SAFEGUARDS.
THIS IS WHY THERE IS DISCIPLINE IN THE MILITARY.
THIS IS WHY THERE IS A CHAIN OF COMMAND.
THIS IS WHY THERE MUST BE IMMEDIATE AND PUBLIC CONSEQUENCES TO THESE SORT OF ACTIONS.
But there isn't, because of a culture that has poisoned the American military from the very top.
I'd like to think I'd never torture someone, no matter the circumstances.
I'd also like to think that even if I did, I would be stopped, because it is GODDAMN WRONG.
It is also useless to any war or intelligence effort, and is completely counterproductive to the professed aims of Americans in Iraq, and is one of the main factors for the utter failure of those efforts. ANY justification or excuse for it is going to lead to more torture, more murder, more hatred, from both sides.
If you believe in God, believe in this: his judgement on Donald Rumsfeld will not be a kind one.

[hmelton]

Hello Ayiekie
I never said the other half of the equation justified what happened to those captured men.
What bothered me and still bothers me is that the murder of the Iraq civilians by these terrorist actions no longer seems to be very news worthy.
There are no detailed accounts in books or on the news to generate the emotion we felt after reading the very short synopsis of the book that started this thread.
Half way through the short synopsis I suddenly wondered about my emotional reaction when I hear the statistics of another homicide bombing of civilians.
The most you usually see in the news is "Dozens dead in a bombing at _______".
There are no follow ups, no details nothing the entire atrocity has been forced into a few almost emotionless words and a single vague numeration.

/QUOTE/
THIS IS WHY THERE IS SAFEGUARDS.
THIS IS WHY THERE IS DISCIPLINE IN THE MILITARY.
THIS IS WHY THERE IS A CHAIN OF COMMAND.
THIS IS WHY THERE MUST BE IMMEDIATE AND PUBLIC CONSEQUENCES TO THESE SORT OF ACTIONS.
/ENDQUOTE/
I agree, there must be public consequences for breaking the rules of engagement.
/QUOTE/
But there isn't, because of a culture that has poisoned the American military from the very top.
/ENDQUOTE/
I disagree.
I think your letting your personal bias against a political party and an administration cloud your view and magnify your emotions.
How strong is your emotional reaction when you hear that "Dozens" of civilians(women and children) have again been bombed?(This usually happens every day.)
Where was your and MY post of outrage for them?
There is not enough evidence in a synopsis of a book we have not read yet to claim a poisoned military culture.
Given roughly 100,000 troops fighting the horror that is Moslem extremist it is to be expected some will break and use the same techniques used by the enemy.
I don't like it and I hope most in the military don't like it, but realistically it will occur hopefully just a very few times that will quickly be stopped.
Is it widespread?
I hope not, but the point I'm now trying to make is there hasn't been enough evidence presented for us to make a decision.
You can't count on the news to give you a clear picture not when they spend entire books or hours of TV time on a each occurance of American torture and barely 20 words on the daily atrocities by the terrorist.
I disagree about your blanket statement that torture can't produce results and only increase the hate.
I personally believe in carefully controlled situations some of what you would probably call torture, such as sleep deprivation can produce useful information.
Would I trust the info NO, but meeting locations and weapons dumps can be checked and removed if they exist.
What this book synopsis seems to be describing is a total breakdown into revenge motivated torture.
I believe we both can agree it is shameful, a disgrace and should be stopped as quickly as possible with all parties punished. Along with reviews to try and prevent it from happening again.
I do believe in God and Jesus and I also believe we are accountable for every action, inaction or word we speak.
I also worry about how I will be judged when I die.
howard melton
God bless

[Ayiekie]

The difference, Howard, is that YOU are supposed to be the good guys.
Let me be quite clear. Americans are not supposed to be doing the things the terrorists do. Americans are supposed to be better than that.
Let me also be clear: you have failed to live up to that rather modest ideal. These are not isolated incidents, but a pattern of events that has been continuously coming out into the open for years now. The supporters of this war, including the President, claimed it was an "isolated incident" when the first pictures and stories came out. This was a lie. It was known even at the time that American torture of prisoners was a widespread practice. Since then, many, many incidents of it have come out. This has gotten very little play in mainstream American media, contrary to what you say.
Moreover, it is an indisputable fact, down on paper, that this administration (and Rumsfeld in particular) have spoken disparagingly about the Geneva Conventions and international law. It is also an indisputable fact that America has been deliberately trying to arrange and rename the classifications of prisoners so they can ignore the Geneva Conventions when they deal with prisoners (including, infamously, at Guantanamo Bay).
Do not EVER try to justify torture. Do not give me any BS about how in "isolated circumstances" it might be helpful. For two reasons.
1) The US has tortured people who were innocent of any wrongdoing. Multiple people released from Guantanamo have accused the US of torturing them while they were there. This is the inevitable consequence of any use of torture.
2) Torture never provides reliable information, and inevitably gets used on innocent victims. This is an accepted fact, but even if it wasn't, you should not be using torture because it is GODDAMN WRONG.
For the love of Christ, what the hell are you fighting for? So you can become what you're fighting? You think the terrorists are bad? STOP COPYING THEM. Once the United States has engaged in the slaughter of civilians (and they have) and the sanctioned torture of innocent people (and they have), what the hell is your moral high ground? What do you have left to cling to to say "We're better than the people we're fighting. This is a just war"?
You started this with the unlawful unilateral invasion of a country that posed no threat to you whatsoever, and that's goddamn shaky moral ground enough without you torturing civilians, thank you very much.
It's very true that atrocities against civilians (which are daily committed by both sides of the conflict) are downplayed in the media. So is the true state of the American military; everybody knows how many died, but the horrific number who were maimed for life is rarely even brought up, despite it being much larger.
None of this in any way justifies ignoring torture. None of it. Because nothing can justify it, just like nothing can justify the use of torture. Ever. Under any circumstances.
Some things are just wrong. Some things must be opposed, in all forms, no matter who is doing them, no matter what the reasons.
If you do not, you have forfeited all claim to being anything other than what your opponents claim you as: the Evil Empire. And I mean that literally and deadly seriously. A country that invades other countries, that slaughters civilians, that ignores international law, that sanctifies torture of prisoners from the highest levels of government, that is a country that is evil and must be opposed.
Stop being that country that must be opposed.

[jpub]

I find it interesting that there's no actual *proof*. A lot of 'some guy witnessed' and 'isn't this an interesting tidbit' but no actual hard cold facts.
I'm not saying they're lying, but if they really had anything substantial for this, I find it very hard to believe no one's reporting this. Are you trying to tell me the entire US military's in on it?
Sorry, don't buy it.
I'm willing to accept that something *may*...heck *probably* is going on, but I see too many fudge-facts in that article to take it seriously.--
Christopher Angel, aka JPublic
The Works of Christopher Angel

[Ayiekie]

"No one's" reporting this.
Boy, where have you been for the last three years?
Oh. Right. In the US.

[jpub]

Um.

[Foxboy]

---

The difference, Howard, is that YOU are supposed to be the good guys.

---

"Good, bad... we're the guys with the guns."
Incendiary rhetoric, self-righteous scolding and glib/snarky replies on both our parts aside, I fear that, as is so often the case, there are no easy answers. I agree that torture does nothing but make people angry and causes spurious "proof."
However, look at the percentage of the soldiers/fighters on both sides willing to torture. I have confidence that the percentage is lower on the US side than the other. Of course, any reports of torture delivered by insurgents must be propaganda by those awful Americans to justify their continued presence and improve their public image.
''We don't just borrow words; on occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways to beat
them unconscious and rifle their pockets for new vocabulary.''

-- James Nicoll

[hmelton]

A friend moved to this state with a computer that had AOL, a Spyware infection and a faulty recovery disk.
I've just spent the last two days proving that when you agree to help a friend with a computer that all the above problems your in for a very rough time.
---------------------
Now back to the thread subject a synopsis of a book about Doctors and torture.
Ayiekie I disagree pretty much with all of your reply to my post.
Jpub post isn't quite my view, but his reply was so clear and concise that anything I would add to the question of widespread torture aren't worth posting.
The only thing I can add to your reply about Jpub's location and the assertion that many countries are filling thier news with the story of Americans using torture is that Japan doesn't seem to have a fixation on this. I regularly watch an english translations of 2 Japanese daily news shows and while Iraq is mentioned in the news they rarely if ever mention torture.
I consider these japanese shows a welcome change in bias from the political biases of FOX, CNN, ABC, CBS and NBC.
If your referring to Arab news America has been the great satan and the source of all evil since at least the 1960's. There is nothing we can do to change that.
I apologise if I'm wrong, but Ayiekie your emotions
seem to be politically motivated and only exist because it's a chance to demonize a politician and party you disagree with.
What struck me about your first post and the synopsis it pointed to was how jaded I'd become and how much I'd fallen into the orwellian thought patterns of world wide news cast.
YES! the torture describe is horrible, but there is a certain political party in this country with a vested interest in making it look far worse and wide spread than it probably is.
They are using orwellian techniques to create a image that they hope will give them the next election.
By the same token the other side has a vested interest in the current party and they use orwellian techniques to down play the "homicide" bombings and other problems to increase or maintian thier power in the next election.
The point for me is that many politicians and reporters don't really care about the torture or murder.
The daily torture and murder of civilians is reduced to around a dozen words that are quickly forgotten.
One group/party wants to downplay these murders, while the other party/group has decided we have become so jaded that focusing on these civilian murders won't make them enough political capitol so they instead focus on and magnify something that is relatively minor, but far newer and a less jaded subject.
Your angered and outraged at what these American did.
Torture is wrong and you should be angered, but...
Saddam was killing between 20,000 and 60,000 citizen yearly for most of the time he was in power and he was in charge for well over a decade.
The current Terrorist kill "dozens" a day given the above lazy reporting it's hard to say how many die every day, but I'll hazard a guess at about 25 to 35 on average.
That's about 10,000 a year murdered by these terrorist.
(Remember they are Killing Iraq citizens because they they want to "protect" the civilians from Americans.)

Where was your outrage, anger and concern about Saddam's murders and mass grave yards? Where did MINE go?
Where is your outrage about these terrorist murdering 10,000 innocent Iraq people yearly. When did I forget these numbers were real people?

The numbers below are extremely rough guesses, but magnitudes will probably give a good comparison.
If Saddam had stayed in power about 150,000 to 250,000 people would now be dead by his hand and orders.
The Terrorist have probably killed 50,000 to 100,000 Iraq citizens since the USA took out Saddam.
I have no idea or certainty, but I can't see more than 5000 terrorist being tortured by american soldiers who have a personal experience with the daily murder of Iraq citizens and attacks on themselves.
Now look at even rougher numbers for comparison.
Saddam ~ 200,000 if had remained leader.
Terrorist ~ 75,000 since the invasion.
Torture ~ 5,000 almost certainly less.
Civilian FF ~>15,000 my own personal estimate of "Friendly Fire" by america during the invasion and current occupation of Iraq. I'll freely accept up to 45,000, after all the ones our soldiers are fighting are known for hiding behind women and children.

I think far to many of us have all become American politicians,in the bad sense. At least as bad as the politicians your trying to paint as demons.
Again Ayiekie I apologize, but your outrage and anger about the torture seems motivated more by politics than the actual crime.
It might not be, but that is the way it reads and looks.
The Terrorist have become American politicians shamelessly murdering the people they claim they are going to save in order to influence the next election.
I became a politician and forgot that the statistics quickly covered in a few words each day are living people. I was worried more about how this would play politically and support my own personal conservative views.
I no longer even cared enough to pray for them or the survivors the statistics represent.
Whats the solution? I don't know and we could generate a huge number of new threads with suggestions.

howard melton
God bless