Mosque at Ground Zero

[Logan Darklighter]

[Logan Darklighter]

Bret Stevens wrote in the WSJ:

Opponents … argue that building the center
so close to Ground Zero is an insult to the memory of the victims of
9/11. Germany has spent six decades in conspicuous and mainly sincere
atonement for Nazi crimes. But it surely has no plans to showcase the
tolerant society it has become by building a cultural center down the
road from Auschwitz. Japan is no doubt equally disinclined to finance a
Shinto shrine in the vicinity of the Pearl Harbor memorial.

The SIOA website states:

People need to know history in order to understand Islam
and what they are really out to achieve. At its height, the Islamic
Empire covered more of the earth than the Roman Empire. The Ottoman
Empire ended in 1924 and the Muslim Brotherhood came about only four
years later. This is no coincidence; it was established to bring back
the world domination that Islam once had. Aside from Islam conquering a
huge part of the world, Islam also conquered most of Spain in the year
711 from Tariq ibn Zayid’s invasion and held it through 1248; it
controlled parts of Spain until its full liberation in 1492. Spain was
renamed Andalusia. So why is this of importance?

The name of the organization planning the mosque is the “Cordoba
Initiative,” and this name itself is a full affront to Americans.
Cordoba was the seat of the Islamic Caliphate that ruled Spain and the
name is often used today by Islamic militants when recalling the glory
of the Islamic Empire from the years when they occupied Spain.

The great mosque of Cordoba is built over Visigothic Spain’s grandest
Cathedral. Risistnet explains:

As a manifestation of Islamic domination and
expansionism, mosques have frequently been placed on the sites of the
holy places of other religions. The Al-Aqsa Mosque, built on top of the
Temple of the Jewish people, which is located in Jerusalem, is the most
famous example. Many famous churches have been turned into mosques,
including the Aya Sofya Mosque in Istanbul, which until the Islamic
conquest of Constantinople of 1453 was the grandest church in
Christendom. The Umayyad Mosque in Damascus was, before the Islamic
conquest, the Church of St. John the Baptist. Historian Sita Ram Goel
has estimated that over two thousand mosques in India were built on the
sites of Hindu temples.

[M Fnord]

It's an ex-Burlington Coat Factory being converted into a community center that yes, has a mosque attached. Big fucking deal.

C'mon, Darklighter, I thought you self-identified as a Libertarian-Republican. It's their property, they can do with it whatever they want, right? Or does OMGMUSLIM override that?
Mr. Fnord interdimensional man of mystery

FenWiki - Your One-Stop Shop for Fenspace Information

"I. Drink. Your. NERDRAGE!"

[Logan Darklighter]

Anyone who can't see what the problem is here is someone I can't take seriously as a thinking person.
I've tried learning more about Islam for the better part of a decade in an honest attempt to "understand" and the more I learn, the more contempt and disgust I have for the "religion of peace".
I've finally come to the conclusion that there is no true coexistence possible. The core tenet of Islam is conquest and submission or "dhimmitude" for those that are conquered. Every place in the world Islam has touched has become a shit-hole. Those who dare leave the faith have to go into hiding lest they be killed. You think intolerance for gays is bad in America? FEH. 10 Billion times worse in any Muslim country. Look up "female genital mutilation" for a real horror show.
We need to FIGHT. Preferably with peaceful methods NOW before it becomes necessary to fight for real and shed real blood later. But fight we will.
Stick your head in the sand all you like. Call me a bigot all you like. The reality will catch up with you sooner or later.
As far as "rights" go. The PEOPLE have a right to oppose this. They have the right to try and stop this Mosque - this slap in the face - from being built. They have the right to assemble and have their voice heard. And to try and elect politicians who will actually listen to them.

-Logan

--------------------
“Lan astaslem.”

I will not submit. I will not surrender.
--------------------

[ECSNorway]

Anyone who can't see what the problem is here is someone I can't take seriously as a thinking person.
I've tried learning more about Islam for the better part of a decade in an honest attempt to "understand" and the more I learn, the more contempt and disgust I have for the "religion of peace".
I've finally come to the conclusion that there is no true coexistence possible. The core tenet of Islam is conquest and submission or "dhimmitude" for those that are conquered. Every place in the world Islam has touched has become a shit-hole. Those who dare leave the faith have to go into hiding lest they be killed. You think intolerance for gays is bad in America? FEH. 10 Billion times worse in any Muslim country. Look up "female genital mutilation" for a real horror show.
We need to FIGHT. Preferably with peaceful methods NOW before it becomes necessary to fight for real and shed real blood later. But fight we will.
Stick your head in the sand all you like. Call me a bigot all you like. The reality will catch up with you sooner or later.
As far as "rights" go. The PEOPLE have a right to oppose this. They have the right to try and stop this Mosque - this slap in the face - from being built. They have the right to assemble and have their voice heard. And to try and elect politicians who will actually listen to them.

-Logan

--------------------
“Lan astaslem.”

I will not submit. I will not surrender.
--------------------

QFT.
--
Sucrose Octanitrate.
Proof positive that with sufficient motivation, you can make anything explode.

[M Fnord]

At one point, a portion of the crowd menacingly surrounded two Egyptian men who were speaking Arabic and were thought to be Muslims.

"Go home," several shouted from the crowd.

"Get out," others shouted.

In fact, the two men – Joseph Nassralla and Karam El Masry — were not Muslims at all. They turned out to be Egyptian Coptic Christians who work for a California-based Christian satellite TV station called "The Way." Both said they had come to protest the mosque.

"I'm a Christian," Nassralla shouted to the crowd, his eyes bulging and beads of sweat rolling down his face.

But it was no use. The protesters had become so angry at what they thought were Muslims that New York City police officers had to rush in and pull Nassralla and El Masry to safety.

"I flew nine hours in an airplane to come here," a frustrated Nassralla said afterward.

But hey, they're Egyptian right? All that Christianity must be a cover so they can CONVERT US ALL INTO GOOD MUSLIMS OR DHIMMIS! EURABIA! EURABIA!
Mr. Fnord interdimensional man of mystery

FenWiki - Your One-Stop Shop for Fenspace Information

"I. Drink. Your. NERDRAGE!"

[Logan Darklighter]

Feh. Classic Straw man. You're trying to twist this into something I DID. NOT. SAY. And to make the thread about THAT.
Why do you feel the need to do this? Do you honestly think this changes anything? Makes me think I'm wrong?
That the FIRST THING you do is to go for the cheap debate tactic and twist this into a different direction means that you can't address the real problem honestly. (I'm not even going to ask you to provide a source for your quote because it simply has no relevance to the issue.)
-Logan

--------------------
“Lan
astaslem.”

I will not submit. I will not surrender.
--------------------

[Logan Darklighter]

Actually Fnord, I'm going to call you out.
Do you think a 15 Story building with a Mosque on the roof that has a direct overview of Ground Zero is a GOOD IDEA?
You have two possible answers.
YES
or
NO
Take your pick. One or the other. You don't even have to explain your answer. Just say yes or no.
-Logan

--------------------
“Lan
astaslem.”

I will not submit. I will not surrender.
--------------------

[M Fnord]

Why do you feel the need to do this? Do you honestly think this changes anything? Makes me think I'm wrong?

There's nothing I could say that would make you think you're wrong. I doubt divine revelation beamed directly into your skull would make you think you're wrong. You are utterly wrapped up in your self-righteousness.

So I'm not bothering with trying to change your mind, and just go straight into the mocking. And quite frankly, you don't deserve a serious argument. So scream "dhimmi" and "clash of civilizations" all you want, I'll just be over here pointing and laughing.

loleurabia
Mr. Fnord interdimensional man of mystery

FenWiki - Your One-Stop Shop for Fenspace Information

"I. Drink. Your. NERDRAGE!"

[M Fnord]

Take your pick. One or the other. You don't even have to explain your answer. Just say yes or no.

Yes, genius, it's fine. I don't care, the City of New York doesn't seem to care, the people of New York don't seem to give a shit one way or the other. Since they're on the spot and I'm not, I trust their judgment.

loleurabia
Mr. Fnord interdimensional man of mystery

FenWiki - Your One-Stop Shop for Fenspace Information

"I. Drink. Your. NERDRAGE!"

[Logan Darklighter]

Well you gave me a straight answer. I'll give you that. I wonder what the logic would look like completely turned around. I wonder if you'd say that building a monument to the Crusaders in Medina or Mecca was a good idea? I kinda doubt it. But since you don't feel the need to answer any argument seriously, I won't hold you to it.
It's funny (not funny haha, just funny=sad) that you accuse me of self-righteousness. Projecting much?
I'll just part with this:
See - you get to mock me because if I'm wrong and you're right, there's no loss. Nothing will have happened. Western civilization will go on. You get to live your happy life and ridicule me. Your children and grandchildren get to live free in a free society.
I honestly hope I never have cause to indulge in schadenfreude at the expense of your point of view. Because on that day, I won't want to. Because it will mean something has gone horribly wrong and laughing and mocking you will be the very last thing I'll feel like doing.
Or it may be we won't know in our lifetimes whether western progress or medieval backwardness will win out. I'm betting and hoping on our western culture. But I think it will take more people to wake up and see what's happening.
*shrug* I guess at this point, we have nothing more to say to each other.
--------------------
“Lan
astaslem.”

I will not submit. I will not surrender.
--------------------

[Glidergun]

I wonder what the logic would look like completely turned around. I
wonder if you'd say that building a monument to the Crusaders in Medina
or Mecca was a good idea?

This, however, is not "the logic turned around". You are equating a mosque to a Muslim version of a monument to the Crusaders. Rather, you should consider a Christian church in Medina. I'm pretty sure they exist. Or, to make the equivalence even more effective, perhaps we should compare it to a recent terrorist attack by a Christian. Like a church directly across the street from the site of the Oklahoma City bombing.

[robkelk]

Well you gave me a straight answer. I'll give you that. I wonder what the logic would look like completely turned around. I wonder if you'd say that building a monument to the Crusaders in Medina or Mecca was a good idea? I kinda doubt it.

Unless you're claiming that New York City is a holy city, this is a bad analogy.

(Although there are some people who worship money, and NYC is home to the New York Stock Exchange... No, that's a digression from the point of the thread.)

A more accurate analogy would be "I wonder if you'd say that building a church in Dhahran was a good idea?".

But since you don't feel the need to answer any argument seriously, I won't hold you to it.

It looks to me as if he gave you a serious answer. It obviously wasn't one that you like, but it was serious.

Or it may be we won't know in our lifetimes whether western progress or medieval backwardness will win out.

In all seriousness, I'm hoping for a third option. (No, I don't know what that option might be. If I did, I'd be working toward implementing it.)
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."

- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012

[Logan Darklighter]

Well you gave me a straight answer. I'll give you that. I wonder what the logic would look like completely turned around. I wonder if you'd say that building a monument to the Crusaders in Medina or Mecca was a good idea? I kinda doubt it.

Unless you're claiming that New York City is a holy city, this is a bad analogy.

Fair enough.

A more accurate analogy would be "I wonder if you'd say that building a
church in Dhahran was a good idea?".

That might be better, yes.

It looks to me as if he gave you a serious answer. It obviously wasn't
one that you like, but it was serious.

Well you're giving me a straight answer - while disagreeing with me, that's respectful. I appreciate that. I get snippy with people who express snarling condescension from the start.

In all seriousness, I'm hoping for a third option. (No, I don't know
what that option might be. If I did, I'd be working toward implementing
it.)

How about a transformation of Islam as wide-ranging as what happened with the reformation before and during the renaissance? I wouldn't hold my breath waiting. But it does seem some of the more moderate Muslims are those in Indonesia. Islam was kinda filtered a bit oddly through their culture.
Like I said - don't hold your breath waiting though.

[Logan Darklighter]

I wonder what the logic would look like completely turned around. I
wonder if you'd say that building a monument to the Crusaders in Medina
or Mecca was a good idea?

This, however, is not "the logic turned around". You are equating a mosque to a Muslim version of a monument to the Crusaders. Rather, you should consider a Christian church in Medina. I'm pretty sure they exist. Or, to make the equivalence even more effective, perhaps we should compare it to a recent terrorist attack by a Christian. Like a church directly across the street from the site of the Oklahoma City bombing.

I agree that the initial comparison isn't a good one. See my reply above.
But I think that your suggestion of a Church near the OKC bombing isn't any better of an analogy.

[khagler]

Here's another quote:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances

Of course, that's from the US Constitution, so it can't possibly have any relevance on anything that happens here in the Evil Empire. 

[Epsilon]

Ah Pat Condell. Proof positive that we atheists have our share of bigoted assholes. I officially deny him on behalf of all sane people everywhere.
--------------
Epsilon

[Bob Schroeck]

But I think that your suggestion of a Church near the OKC bombing isn't any better of an analogy.

Well, it is, if you define Christianity by a close reading of its scriptures and history, and then use its craziest and most extreme membership as the model by which you characterize the entire religion. Basically, the way you're viewing Islam is exactly the same as taking the Westboro Baptist Church or those extreme antigovernment "white power"/surivivalist cults (I hesitate to even call them "sects") that are scattered throughout the midwest and northwest as defining examples of all Christians. I certainly wouldn't like the idea of one of those groups setting up a sanctuary across the street from the OC Federal Building; I would see that as a deliberate taunt. But a Unitarian or Catholic church on the same site? Not so much.

Look, if you characterize a religion by its worst excesses, then Christianity is arguably as bad and possibly worse than Islam. (Just off the top of my head: Crusades, Inquisition, anti-semitism, conversion by the sword, justification for the American slave trade, religious/sectarian violence, Catholic sex abuse -- hell, there's still a big chunk of the Southern Baptist Convention that whines that they're being oppressed because they're not allowed to run everything and forceably convert anyone they want, just like Gawd told them to. I'm sure Rev Dark has far more examples and relevant data at his fingertips, while I'd have to go look up stuff to get more than that. Oh, and before you bring Islamic fatalism and all that up, let me just point you at Calvinism and ask you to consider just how different its predestination is from its Islamic equivalents -- and how less poisonous.)

My point is that, from what I can tell, you are pointing at the Islamic equivalent of Lutherans and screaming that they're violent radicals whose only excuse for building their sanctuary is so they can loom over Ground Zero and cackle maniacally while rubbing their hands together in a properly villainous fashion. But you're embracing a fallacy -- that Islam is a monolithic single religion whose every follower believes exactly the same thing and has exactly the same attitudes/goals/methods as every other member.

This is not true. The Shiite/Sunni split alone puts the lie to the idea of the single monolithic Islam.

It is not Islam that we must fear and defend against. It is Islamic Fundamentalism and Islamic Extremism. And they are not the same thing as Islam, any more than the Westboro Baptist Church is the same thing as Christianity.

-- Bob
---------
Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.

[Glidergun]

But I think that your suggestion of a Church near the OKC bombing isn't any better of an analogy.

I'll agree that that specific case isn't a particularly good one, not least because the church in question is over a hundred years old.
But the point it is being used to make, as explained by Bob, is quite valid. I'm sure if I spent enough time I could find a better example.

[Logan Darklighter]

I'm doing some research for my next reply. Might post it later tonight or tomorrow.

[Bob Schroeck]

I suppose I should point out that before the 19th Century, Islam was not a radicalized religion -- at least no more so than Christianity. It had its expansionist periods, it had its equivalents to the Crusades, but it also was the shining light of scholarship preserved during a period when in Europe knowledge was lost, learning suppressed and education at least partially demonized. It really was the "Religion of Peace", inasfar as any religion can manage it -- certainly it had at least as good a claim to the name as Christianity did.

It was only in the middle of the 19th Century that what we now consider Islamic fundamentalism and extremism first emerged. (By a very curious coincidence -- and if I were any kind of student of anthropology or sociology I'd want to investigate this -- at about the same time Christian fundamentalism, particularly of the apocalyptic eschatological flavor which informs modern Conservative Christianity, was born in the United States. I'd be very curious to find out if there were similar social or political influences that drove the birth of both movements.)

In any case, I wanted to note that Islamic Fundamentalism is not so much a religious movement as a political movement taking advantage of religion for its own benefit -- like Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell with Christianity in the United States. As is frequently the case, it isn't the religion we need to worry about -- it's what cynical leaders who cloak themselves in that religion can do with the true believers that follow them.
-- Bob
---------
Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.

[Rev Dark]

The location of the mosque is interesting.



I do agree that fundamentalist Islam is going to use the presence and location as a talking point. This is unavoidable.



It is also going to backfire, but not necessarily in the fashion that they are expecting. I find many of the tenets of Islam toxic; which is okay. I find many of the tenets of Christianity toxic.



Christianity though, at least in the first world, has had its teeth pulled. Or rather punched out and hung around its neck. Secular law trumping religious authority. Yes there is still a lot of evil being done in their name; from their stand on contraception and HPV vaccination; but this is the same shit they've been pulling for years. These are the same dip-shits who spoke out again vaccination; Rubella, polio, etc. Guess what, in the third world, some Bishops and ArchBishops are still doing just that. As well as lying about the efficacy of condoms in preventing AIDS.



Islam isn't any better, and vaccinations in Muslim countries, including Afghanistan are often stymied by head-so-far-up-arse-they-are-fellating-their-appendix imams; who speak out on it as a plot to sterilize Muslims.



In both case these twat-donkeys (and I mean that in the nicest way); are effectively murdering the faithful; who have erroneously placed their trust in these ass-hats. It isn't just the religion either - that lying fuck Wakefield and celebrity douche-supreme Jenny McCarthy has a lot to answer for.



But I digress.



The US Constitution is a wonderful thing. The founders had more collected awesome than trampoline and whipped cream day at the Playboy mansion. Freedom of speech is an insidious thing; and I mean that in the best way possible. Draw Muhammad day really grabbed back the inertia from the fundamentalist kill-dems-dat-draw-da-pedo-prophet hooligans. It is just going to keep growing. Islam in America is going to mutate into something entirely different, and far more enlightened, and that in turn is going to poison the well of the nastier fundamentalist versions. You can expect Piss-Muhammad next to Piss-Christ at the gallery sooner rather than later.



Free speech will kick the teeth out of Islam; and string them around its neck. Equality for women, tolerance for homosexuals, it is coming, and an Islamic presence in America is going to hasten this. There is going to be short term pain; but I think it will ultimately be worth it.

[Black Aeronaut]

Makes me ashamed to be a Texan sometimes.

I myself find no huge problem with it, especially if there are other religious organizations represented. As mentioned, it is the extremists we need to watch out for and not the more enlightened moderates.

Also agree that at one point in time that Christians were worse barbarians than the Muslims. (Gee, wonder where they picked it up from?)

Really the thing about all this that pisses me off is the sheer hypocrisy. There's no escaping it in any religion, even among Atheists. It's even (especially!) present among Mormons - we preach tolerance, but then vote against rights for homosexuals. *rolls eyes*

[Ayiekie]

Boy, there ain't nothing like a good ol' manufactured controversy to bring all the bigots out of the woodwork!

(And atheism is not a religion, unless not believing in the tooth fairy is a superstition, or not having a banana is a snack.)

[Evil Midnight Lurker]

Agnosticism, such as I hold, is not a religion.  I don't know whether or not there's a God.
Atheism, the firm and frequently vocal belief in the absolutely unprovable position that There Is No God, can easily be described as a religion.
--Sam
"I'm about to write you a reality check. Or would you prefer the cold,
hard cash of truth?"