At least they're finished prevaricating around the bush now...

[LynnInDenver]

http://blogs.ocweekly.com...il-a_anti-gay_stance.php

At last. One place I can point to, rather than having to dig up donation tracking links, to indicate to others WHY I won't eat there.

(Only posted in Politics because I would be surprised if we weren't 100% on the gay rights side here.)
--

"You know how parents tell you everything's going to fine, but you know they're lying to make you feel better? Everything's going to be fine." - The Doctor

[robkelk]

That isn't a chain we have here in Canada... and (with same-sex marriage being legal in these parts) I'm guessing we won't ever have them around here.

How am I supposed to boycott them if they aren't here to be boycotted?
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."

- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012

[Rev Dark]

Well let's see what the dismal little chicken choker had to say.

"We are very much supportive of the family--the biblical definition of
the family unit," he explained. "We are a family-owned business, a
family-led business, and we are married to our first wives. We give God
thanks for that. . . . We know that it might not be popular with
everyone, but thank the Lord, we live in a country where we can share
our values and operate on biblical principles."

Oooh.  Well go fuck a duck
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EXPcBI4CJc8
The biblical definition of a family unit.  So what exactly is that again?
Is it Deuteronomy 22:28-29?

If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with
her, and they be found; Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels
of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his
days.

Is it Genesis 4:19?

And Lamech took unto him two wives.

Is is Genesis 31:17?

Then Jacob rose up, and set ... his wives upon camels.

2 Chronicles 11:21

Then Jacob rose up, and set ... his wives upon camels.

Now, the bible also has a number of verses that can be interpreted as anti-polygamy; or more likely anti-divorce.

"I think we are inviting God's judgment on our nation when we shake our
fist at Him and say 'we know better than you as to what constitutes a
marriage' and I pray God's mercy on our generation that has such a
prideful, arrogant attitude to think that we have the audacity to define
what marriage is about," Cathy said.

Sure, the Bible on marriage... Buying your rape victims?  That deserves a fist shake - with middle finger outstretched.  Not towards the imaginary, but towards this dipshit.

[Black Aeronaut]

*Shruggs* Very different times back then. Near as I can figure, you were expected to take responsibility for your women, even if you two suddenly develop a steaming hatred of each others guts (and here the whole forgiveness and understanding thing comes to play). Also, bear in mind that back then, the lines were clearly drawn: Woman = stay at home, take care of the house and raise the children; Man = go, earn your living, support your wife and children.

But that was then, and this is now. And, I might add, we are starting to digress a bit.

I'd like to find out if this man is a Latter-day Saint. If he is, then as a fellow Mormon, I'd like to take him to task about free agency, and remind him that in our religion, Satan's ultimate goal is to simply make sure that everyone is miserable, and so why in the blue fuck would you play a role in that?

[Rev Dark]

Blackaeronaut wrote.

*Shruggs* Very different times back then. Near as I can figure, you
were expected to take responsibility for your women, even if you two
suddenly develop a steaming hatred of each others guts (and here the
whole forgiveness and understanding thing comes to play).

The technical term is property.  You own your land, you own your livestock, you own your women.

Also, bear in
mind that back then, the lines were clearly drawn: Woman = stay at
home, take care of the house and raise the children; Man = go, earn your
living, support your wife and children.

That is an incorrect statement; especially in an agriculture dominant area.  All hands are required to work the farm.  I am not sure what sort of argument you are making.

I'd like to find out if this man is a Latter-day Saint. If he is, then
as a fellow Mormon, I'd like to take him to task about free agency, and
remind him that in our religion, Satan's ultimate goal is to simply make
sure that everyone is miserable, and so why in the blue fuck would you
play a role in that?

I see.  Did you send a strongly worded letter to the leadership of the Latter-day Saints when they went to the wall to condemn Proposition 8 in California - citing the arguments above? (which by the way, makes you cool and a better human being than the Quorum of Twelve Apostles )   Did you send that letter in regards in regards to their anti-gay stance in the Boy Scouts of America?
On a purely personal and anecdotal note - when I visited Utah (Provo and Orem) - it had the largest selection of lesbian DVDs I have ever encountered in shopping mall record/video stores (and the most porn I have seen openly sold in any city).  Which I still find amusing to this day - well that and asking if they had a copy of Orgasmo - the greatest Mormon Porn Superhero movie to date.

[robkelk]

All these Old Testament quotes about marriage... How about 1 Corinthians 7:8?

Now to the unmarried and the widows I say: It is good for them to stay unmarried, as I am.

So, if they're married, they're going against what's written in the Bible!
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."

- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012

[Black Aeronaut]

I see.  Did you send a strongly worded letter to the leadership of the Latter-day Saints when they went to the wall to condemn Proposition 8 in California - citing the arguments above? (which by the way, makes you cool and a better human being than the Quorum of Twelve Apostles )   Did you send that letter in regards in regards to their anti-gay stance in the Boy Scouts of America?

At the time those were happening I had much bigger concerns on my mind, like whether or not Korea was gonna light up like a Thanksgiving turkey-frier gone wrong.  But when I was asked about it, I did state my disdain towards other members of the LDS Church that rallied behind Prop 8.
On the other hand, with the anti-gay thing in the Boyscouts... my concerns are more of a non-religious variety.  After all, is there a reason in particular we don't have girls in the Boyscouts?  (Aside from Den Mothers for the Cubscouts - let's not get too literal, please.)  If not, then let's nip the problem in the bud.  Merge the two programs together (or just create a new gender-neutral program) and it'll be LGBT-friendly.

[robkelk]

... On the other hand, with the anti-gay thing in the Boyscouts... my concerns are more of a non-religious variety.  After all, is there a reason in particular we don't have girls in the Boyscouts?  (Aside from Den Mothers for the Cubscouts - let's not get too literal, please.) ...

We do have girls in the Scouts - in Canada. (Equal rights, and all that.)

However, we don't have boys in the Guides. (Girls need a place of their own, and all that.)

Spot the logic flaw and win... well, nothing, because logic won't fix that mess.
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."

- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012

[Rev Dark]

Proving once again that some puppets are more human than fundamentalist douche-canoes, the muppets have broken off their relationship with Chick-fil-A.  I am a little surprised that Chick-fil-A used the muppets for their kid's mela toys.  The Muppets; where a cow and a pig can someday have beautiful little figs and every performance starts and ends with a hand elbow deep in the jacksie.
Rob noted.

All these Old Testament quotes about marriage... How about 1 Corinthians 7:8?

Corinthians 7:8
Now to the unmarried and the widows I say: It is good for them to stay unmarried, as I am.So, if they're married, they're going against what's written in the Bible!
Great example Rob - and just a few chapters later we have First Timothy (3:2)

A bishop then must be
blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to
teach;

A bishop no less - the husband to one wife.
A lot of this inconsistency, especially in the Pauline epistles comes from christianity being an apocalyptic religion that never got around to having the apocalypse.  Add in that many of the books and letters that eventually came to become the new testament were not written by the proclaimed authors.  The bible is chock full of pseudepigraphy.  A lot of the Pauline gospels were not written by Paul; some of the most famous stories do not appear in the earliest copies of the new gospels.  Bits added on, bits taken away.  Contradiction is inevitable as new church positions, even those in direct opposition to earlier works are added in.
Okay, back to the crispy fried douche nozzles at Chik-fil-A.  The Mayor of Boston has stood up and said he is going to do everything he can to keep the homophobic chicken chokers out of his city.  I disagree with this sentiment.  Let them come in and build their oil-dripping temple to biblical family values.  It costs them money - and when no one shows up and it eventually closes, they can feel it in their pocketbooks.

[Werehawk]

I'll make couple of observations on the Chi-fil-A boycott which quite frankly is a waste of time and energy that could be better spent elsewhere.
a.) It's not going to really have an effect beyond a minor drop in sales. Not too many people are going to bother injecting their own politics or personal beliefs into what they buy. The most likely ones to boycott chic-fil-a are either college students and people who are going to do so anyway the rest of population could care less or will not even know about the boycott.
b.) Chic-fil-a is totally private and family owned which makes it very hard for a group of activists to put pressure on them than is the case with a company that is publicly traded is more susceptible to pressure form it's stockholders than is the case for a privately owned family company which has few if any pressure points that a group of activists can target and use. In other words it's not going to get very far.
Finally let me observe that the entire boycott this or that company for xyz cause method of protest has become an overused and blunt arrow which is no longer as effective and capable of getting results.
--Werehawk--
My mom's brief take on upcoming Guatemalan Elections "In last throes of preelection activities. Much loudspeaker vote pleading."

[LynnInDenver]

I don't doubt that my personal boycott will have little to no effect upon them or their policies in the short or long term. That arrow had the head wrapped in a tennis ball and huge wad of duct tape the second they were big enough as a company that it will take a large percentage of the population (greater than 50%) boycotting them to have any effect at all.

However, on the other hand, I'm not going to go buy product - and add to the profit as a result - of a company that's pushing money to groups intending to forcibly infringe the rights of a group in this country via legal finagling. The cold reality of the effect doesn't matter, it's a matter of personal principle at this point for me.
--

"You know how parents tell you everything's going to fine, but you know they're lying to make you feel better? Everything's going to be fine." - The Doctor

[Black Aeronaut]

Finally let me observe that the entire boycott this or that company for xyz cause method of protest has become an overused and blunt arrow which is no longer as effective and capable of getting results.

Especially considering how advertisements work these days.  "Come to Chik-fil-a!  Home of the all-american conservative christian chicken sandwich!"

[Rev Dark]

"Come to Chik-fil-a!  Home of the all-american conservative christian chicken sandwich!"

Yes, we use only the freshest chickens, you get to watch as your chicken is killed horribly by Ted Nugent and then you are shot in the face by Dick Cheney.

[robkelk]

Finally let me observe that the entire boycott this or that company for xyz cause method of protest has become an overused and blunt arrow which is no longer as effective and capable of getting results.

Especially considering how advertisements work these days.  "Come to Chik-fil-a!  Home of the all-american conservative christian chicken sandwich!"

How many all-american conservative christian chickens are there, anyway? And how can you tell? It's not as if most chickens vote or attend services...
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."

- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012

[Black Aeronaut]

Finally let me observe that the entire boycott this or that company for xyz cause method of protest has become an overused and blunt arrow which is no longer as effective and capable of getting results.

Especially considering how advertisements work these days.  "Come to Chik-fil-a!  Home of the all-american conservative christian chicken sandwich!"

How many all-american conservative christian chickens are there, anyway? And how can you tell? It's not as if most chickens vote or attend services...

Think I got one here.  *grins*

[Werehawk]

Indeed guys...Of course advertisementese can be be a very sneaky and tricksy language to decipher and one fraught with pitfalls for it's intended audience.

Noticed this from a legal blog which points out a first amendment issue for Chicago or Boston blocking Chick-Fil-A from getting a permit or building a restaurant. One that is very relevant.

....denying a private business permits because of such speech by its owner is a blatant First Amendment violation. Even when it comes to government contracting — where the government is choosing how to spend government money — the government generally may not discriminate based on the contractor’s speech, -snip- It is even clearer that the government may not make decisions about how people will be allowed to use their own property based on the speaker’s past speech.

And this is so even if there is no statutory right to a particular kind of building permit (-snip-). Even if the government may deny permits to people based on various reasons, it may not deny permits to people based on their exercise of his First Amendment rights. It doesn’t matter if the applicant expresses speech that doesn’t share the government officials’ values, or even the values of the majority of local citizens. It doesn’t matter if the applicant’s speech is seen as “disrespect[ful]” of certain groups. The First Amendment generally protects people’s rights to express such views without worrying that the government will deny them business permits as a result. That’s basic First Amendment law — but Alderman Moreno, Mayor Menino, and, apparently, Mayor Emanuel (-snip-), seem to either not know or not care about the law.

There's a fair bit more at the the Volokh conspiracy (Link below) which does state that the only way they could be denied a permit would be if Chicago could prove that Chick-Fil-A had discriminated in hiring or in serving people in Chicago. However as Eugene Volokh notes if the main reason they are going after Chick-Fil-A is for the owners speech (however objectionable it may be) the Government of Chicago will not have any legally defensible reason for denying Chick-Fil-A a permit.

http://www.volokh.com/2012/07/25/no-bui ... -marriage/
--Werehawk--
My mom's brief take on upcoming Guatemalan Elections "In last throes of preelection activities. Much loudspeaker vote pleading."

[Rev Dark]

Nothing says family values like impersonating a teenage girl...
http://www.buzzfeed.com/daves4/chick-fi ... -a-teenage

[LynnInDenver]

In related news, I'm amazed at the people who not only think a boycott is ineffective, but that one shouldn't consider a business to be boycottable simply because of things like donations and personal views of the man who is effectively the company's "face".

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/arc ... -a/260139/

It's a slippery slope argument... but the religious-wrapped-nutbars have already been mandating the "boycott unless they absolutely stay out of the field or come down firmly on our side" line.

On the other hand, that the company has made these donations at all means, no matter the arguments that the debate needs to remain solely in the governmental and political arenas and not spill over into the business arena, the company has firmly involved itself in those arenas.
--

"You know how parents tell you everything's going to fine, but you know they're lying to make you feel better? Everything's going to be fine." - The Doctor

[Black Aeronaut]

On the other hand, that the company has made these donations at all means, no matter the arguments that the debate needs to remain solely in the governmental and political arenas and not spill over into the business arena, the company has firmly involved itself in those arenas.

Agreed. And the following only goes to further support this view...

Nothing says family values like impersonating a teenage girl...
http://www.buzzfeed.com/daves4/chick-fi ... -a-teenage

Congratulations, Mr. Cathy - you have joined the ranks of those that have attempted social engineering, such as China with their millions of puppet!Facebook accounts.

[Werehawk]

JFerio & Blackareonaut:
If people want to boycott a company they can be free to do so.  That said I do draw a line at government officials elected or otherwise retaliating at company for the viewpoints of its owners or an individual for expressing their views however unpopular or detestable these views may be. To me this is an unacceptable abuse of governmental power and unconstitutional one in the U.S.
--Werehawk--
My mom's brief take on upcoming Guatemalan Elections "In last throes of preelection activities. Much loudspeaker vote pleading."

[LynnInDenver]

Werehawk, I don't really expect Boston and Chicago to effectively be able to keep them out, I read the article too that basically says the cities really don't have a leg to stand on, both from the standpoint of free speech, but I also expect from the standpoint of freedom of religion. It basically means the cities are going to have a higher standard than just "they don't fit the values we want", given how and "why" the values are being expressed. They'd have to prove actual discrimination regularly occurs, both to customers and to employees. Yes, I've heard of some of the restaurant locations not being willing to serve obviously out folks... but it could also be argued that it's still isolated incidents, even with Mr. Cathy now being on record as being anti-gay, if only because there's been such a long time of trying to keep at least the public image of the company clean.
--

"You know how parents tell you everything's going to fine, but you know they're lying to make you feel better? Everything's going to be fine." - The Doctor

[Werehawk]

Indeed which is prety much my viewpoint on the issue.  Also it looks like the Boston Mayor Menino has just realized that his mouth leapt ahead of his power to act on things.
http://bostonherald.com/business/genera ... 1061148712
On a side note there's Sarah Hoyt's post on the issue which make for an interesting read.
http://accordingtohoyt.com/2012/07/26/h ... ce-people/
I'll note that she is a gay marriage supporter but one who's getting annoyed by the way some supporters have being behaving.
(Both links are from instapundit)
--Werehawk--
My mom's brief take on upcoming Guatemalan Elections "In last throes of preelection activities. Much loudspeaker vote pleading."

[robkelk]

Today's Dork Tower



Um... yeah.
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."

- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012

[Jorlem]

At least one of the franchise managers seems to disagree with the CEO's sentiment, and is donating food to a local gay pride festival.
-----
Stand between the Silver Crystal and the Golden Sea.
"Youngsters these days just have no appreciation for the magnificence of the legendary cucumber."  --Krityan Elder, Tales of Vesperia.

[Black Aeronaut]

I'll tell you guys what. Ever since it came out that it was mostly because a CNN reporter spiced things up, I've promised myself that at the first opportunity available to me I'm gonna go have myself a nice chargrill chicken club sandwich with a large order of waffle fries and a nice tall glass of their fresh squeezed lemonade. :d