Apparently, it's illegal to fix your own car in the USA

[robkelk]

http://www.autoblog.com/2015/04/20/auto ... r-repairs/

Automakers are supporting provisions in copyright law that could prohibit home mechanics and car enthusiasts from repairing and modifying their own vehicles.

I really, really hope this is an unintended consequence. Mind you, I never liked the DMCA in the first place.
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."

- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012

[Rajvik]

Oh you have got to be bloody kidding me. Damn lawyers need to be taken out and shot repeatedly
 

[Black Aeronaut]

Here we have two paths before us.

On one path, he have fully automated vehicles that take all control out of the hands of the owner, rendering them nothing more than a passenger. And, very much unfortunately, the auto manufacturers would be correct in saying that we should not tinker with our vehicles in this case. They can say whatever reason it would be, they can even honestly say that it's because they want to make more money. However, the reason that will matter the most is because there will be Federal Guidelines on how the programming and the sensor systems automated vehicles work. Modifying your vehicle will mean having to modify the programming. Even for something as simple as a body kit, because that will change the aerodynamic profile of your vehicle, and therefore the overall performance of your vehicle.

The other path?
Simple, but the question is how badly do you want it?

What is it you ask? Oh, that? Well, like I said, it's simple.

We get rid of all electronic systems and return to full electromechanical engineering on our vehicles. No engine control computers, no sensors, no bullshit. The most complicated bit in our cars will be our radio decks.

Good luck making that happen. People like automation. That means they'll have someone else to blame in the event of an accident. (I'm still waiting to hear about a multi-million-dollar lawsuit over an accident caused by the failure of a blindspot sensor or automated emergency braking system.)

[Rajvik]

I will never accept the first, because damn them I will decide how I get to where I'm going.

As to the second, I don't need and get constantly irritated by computer control systems in a car. But just because you have no computers in a car doesn't mean you can't have creature comforts.
 

[Rod.H]

The coverage of this on Jalopnix has had a few comments that this is technically all ready the case in California mostly due to CARB and everywhere else in the US thanks to the EPA - illegal to tamper with emission control devices - doesn't stop the rolling coal brotrucks.

A way around it, is the use of open ECUs but as they're not CARB or EPA approved, good luck with that.

I believe Jay Leno has a few cars with purely mechanical control systems that have AC and radios fitted. Though I believe the techs that can work on mechanical EFI are down to being able to be counted on one hand with fingers left over.

[LynnInDenver]

The auto companies are just using a quirk of laws never meant for them (it was supposed to be a gift for the Copyright Cartel), but poorly written enough all sorts of stuff has been shoehorned into it, to try to force what they felt should have been theirs to begin with - having to go to them for any and all repairs and "modification" (read: you either get it installed at the factory or by the dealers, or not at all). Nothing but a money grab when it comes down to it.
--

"You know how parents tell you everything's going to fine, but you know they're lying to make you feel better? Everything's going to be fine." - The Doctor

[ordnance11]

If that happens it will put the DIY auto sector out of business. Expect to see a lot of lobbying over that.
__________________
Into terror!,  Into valour!
Charge ahead! No! Never turn
Yes, it's into the fire we fly
And the devil will burn!
- Scarlett Pimpernell

[robkelk]

Here we have two paths before us.

On one path, he have fully automated vehicles that take all control out of the hands of the owner, rendering them nothing more than a passenger. And, very much unfortunately, the auto manufacturers would be correct in saying that we should not tinker with our vehicles in this case. They can say whatever reason it would be, they can even honestly say that it's because they want to make more money. However, the reason that will matter the most is because there will be Federal Guidelines on how the programming and the sensor systems automated vehicles work. Modifying your vehicle will mean having to modify the programming. Even for something as simple as a body kit, because that will change the aerodynamic profile of your vehicle, and therefore the overall performance of your vehicle.

The other path?
Simple, but the question is how badly do you want it?

What is it you ask? Oh, that? Well, like I said, it's simple.

We get rid of all electronic systems and return to full electromechanical engineering on our vehicles. No engine control computers, no sensors, no bullshit. The most complicated bit in our cars will be our radio decks.

Good luck making that happen. People like automation. That means they'll have someone else to blame in the event of an accident. (I'm still waiting to hear about a multi-million-dollar lawsuit over an accident caused by the failure of a blindspot sensor or automated emergency braking system.)

I will believe "fully automated vehicles" when they can handle something other than a flat, clean right-of-way. There might be self-driving cars in Arizona in a half-decade, but they're nowhere near ready for even beta-testing in places where we get rain and snow.

There's no going back to "no engine control computers" - they're too useful in keeping the engines tuned and fuel-efficient.

We have to find a third option.
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."

- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012

[Logan Darklighter]

*SIGH*
This is so stupid. And people are sheep. They'll fall for it. 
I need to hit up some of my dad's old car contacts and see if anyone has a Studebaker or a classic 1967 Ford Mustang for sale. I'm already sick of cars that I have no TALENT to work on. I want one where I know how to fix it and can. I want at least ONE solid back-up car that won't either fall under this stupid set of rules (or that can survive an EMP and still function). 

[Rajvik]

Rob, you keep a good Carburetor in tune and you'll still get decent fuel mileage. maybe not the whole 40mpg that computer controlled cars get but a damned sight better than what a lot of people on the "Green" side of things would want you to think. My question for you is what do you think that third option would be?

Logan, see if you can find a Diesel powered VW sedan, they have always been real good for both mileage and reliability. not to mention that a lot of the older ones can be run on peanut oil cut with diesel, and yes, even the used peanut oil
 

[robkelk]

Rob, you keep a good Carburetor in tune and you'll still get decent fuel mileage. maybe not the whole 40mpg that computer controlled cars get but a damned sight better than what a lot of people on the "Green" side of things would want you to think. My question for you is what do you think that third option would be?

If I had one, I would have offered it already.

Although I think opening the source code (the way many other software makers do) so everyone could use the same standards would be part of that third option.
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."

- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012

[Rajvik]

I can agree with you there but I doubt its very likely to happen
 

[Black Aeronaut]

Yeah, fuel injection is nice, but carburetors work fairly effectively, too.

What really improves fuel efficiency is how the engine itself is designed, and how good your transmission is. Automatic transmissions only became better than the drivers who prefer manuals once they started incorporating computer controls there as well.

And it'd be nice if we could get the EPA to lay off a bunch of other stupid rules and restrictions that simply cater to the automotive industry. For example, how many of you guys knew that it's illegal to import an engine block from outside the USA? The EPA claims that it's because the emission systems those blocks are made for don't meet their standards - which is really laughable because places like Japan have much more stringent air pollution controls than we have here. No, the real reason is because the automotive industry wants to keep the world market for engine blocks closed off to consumers here in the USA - since we seem to blow through them so quickly due to negligence and all.

Me? I want the freakin' 2.5L turbo diesel engine that's an option for my truck outside the USA. Aside from some exhaust mods (and maybe some fuel system mods, too) it's a direct swap into my truck.

[Rod.H]

BA, it might end up being easier to import said version of truck than it would be to just get the engine as I'd a quick peruse of the EPA info and while Form 3520-1 Code W suggest it's possible, the other parts say no it must be like for like or better with EPA cert.

Man, I'm seeing why Overhaulin' and other of its ilk like using hi-po crate motors. Too bad there's not a diesel version of that.

Down here it's like ya pay some money and y'right. Though for some things it's pay a shipping container load of money then your right. However there's somethings that are never going to be so, until they're 25 years old at least; left hand drive only if they're recent and only exist as such, display only, same for race cars and track day specials.

Meh, it's not like I'll ever be able to afford the real interesting cars anyway and I actually like the current models of Corolla - I kinda have to for all my money went on a new non-Irish spec '14, due to killing the '03.

[Rajvik]

I had a disturbing th ought today. Not only is this going to kill the auto parts stores and mechanics shops like Pep Boys and the like. But its also going to kill the used car market because like computer OSs after a certain amount of time the company just doesn't supportthe model so you have to run it till it bbreaks and then buy a new one.
 

[nemonowan]

Indeed. Unlike other items, safety regulations require a minimum of quality in the materials and engineering that go into making a car.So the normal ways of forcing planned obsolescence upon consumers cannot be used.But if nobody can access the software, only they can fix any problems that pop up, capturing that revenue stream. And if they decide that they won't fix problems in cars with unsupported versions of the software, you are out of luck.Even worse, they can program it to start failing much sooner than the mechanics would.

[Black Aeronaut]

Rod H wrote:

---

BA, it might end up being easier to import said version of truck than it would be to just get the engine as I'd a quick peruse of the EPA info and while Form 3520-1 Code W suggest it's possible, the other parts say no it must be like for like or better with EPA cert.

And that's pretty much the problem.  It won't matter what you're trying to bring over - unless it is the exact same model sold here in the US (save for being a right-side-driver version) with the exact same emissions system, they won't approve it.  And if you try and finagle it through customs, the EPA will seize the vehicle and destroy it.

[robkelk]

I had a disturbing th ought today. Not only is this going to kill the auto parts stores and mechanics shops like Pep Boys and the like. But its also going to kill the used car market because like computer OSs after a certain amount of time the company just doesn't supportthe model so you have to run it till it bbreaks and then buy a new one.

That's another reason to open up the source code.
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."

- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012

[Dartz]

Indeed. Unlike other items, safety regulations require a minimum of quality in the materials and engineering that go into making a car.
So the normal ways of forcing planned obsolescence upon consumers cannot be used.
But if nobody can access the software, only they can fix any problems that pop up, capturing that revenue stream. And if they decide that they won't fix problems in cars with unsupported versions of the software, you are out of luck.
Even worse, they can program it to start failing much sooner than the mechanics would.

*Jeapordy Jingle*

"What is Limp-Home Mode?"

Volkswagens already do this. Go into limp-mode at the drop of a pin. Some renaults also. The last car we owned - and it was an awesome car - was sold off because the gearbox liked to randomly declare it had a fault and go into limp mode. For no reason beyond phase of the moon - nobody could ever find anything wrong with the thing. The car had to be sold, because it resisted all attempts at fixing.
________________________________
--m(^0^)m-- Wot, no sig?

[Rod.H]

The 25 year rule, you can import an '89 diesel Land Rover Discovery now, though thanks to the spirits of Lucas Electrics, why?

[Black Aeronaut]

Dartz wrote:

---

nemonowan wrote:

---

Indeed. Unlike other items, safety regulations require a minimum of quality in the materials and engineering that go into making a car.
So the normal ways of forcing planned obsolescence upon consumers cannot be used.
But if nobody can access the software, only they can fix any problems that pop up, capturing that revenue stream. And if they decide that they won't fix problems in cars with unsupported versions of the software, you are out of luck.
Even worse, they can program it to start failing much sooner than the mechanics would.

*Jeapordy Jingle*

"What is Limp-Home Mode?"

Volkswagens already do this. Go into limp-mode at the drop of a pin. Some renaults also. The last car we owned - and it was an awesome car - was sold off because the gearbox liked to randomly declare it had a fault and go into limp mode. For no reason beyond phase of the moon - nobody could ever find anything wrong with the thing. The car had to be sold, because it resisted all attempts at fixing.

Yeesh.  Sounds like the only sort of fault that can be uncovered by sticking the transmission into a test rig, set it to simulate several days of hard driving, and keep a computer monitoring the transmission's computer to see what the hell is going on when it finally does fault.  In my experience, faults like this are caused by either an intermittently faulty valve, or a garble bit of code.
I don't suppose they ever did a checksum check on the transmission's memory chip?

Rod H wrote:

---

The 25 year rule, you can import an '89 diesel Land Rover Discovery now, though thanks to the spirits of Lucas Electrics, why?

What, really?  What gave you the impression I was after a Land Rover?  This is what I'm after!

[Rod.H]

Just pointing out options. Though I'd be wary of trying to import anything from Jaguar Land Rover as they 'reused' some VIN sequences and HomeSec's going around seizing cars.

I'm wondering if any made it to Canada, 15 year rule there, though that's apparently a bit hit and miss. There's probably none left in Japan thanks to shaken.....nothing appropriate on local ebay and car classifieds.... and EPA and NHTSA make importing the right engine hard and places like gAs(s) Monkey won't touch ya due to a) no 20' container of cash and b)wrong type of customizing.

Still, there's the out there option: fit a gas turbine.

[Dartz]

B2500's really hold their value here.

Although one thing I never did understand about pickups.... how the fuck does stuff not get stolen out of them all the time? Most tradesmen here tent to either have a full back on theirs, or just buy a transit van
________________________________
--m(^0^)m-- Wot, no sig?

[robkelk]

They're usually in secure (or watched) areas when parked, and it's difficult to take something out of a moving vehicle. For the "edge cases," there are lockable cases that can be installed in the cargo areas.
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."

- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012

[Logan Darklighter]

Wonderful article from Wired that underscores my opinion on older cars. 
Nothing Beats an Old, Crappy Car

I write about cars for a living. The job is nothing if not surreal. Last year, I lapped Indianapolis Motor Speedway in a Porsche 962C that won the 24 Hours of Le Mans. I spent the better part of a day last fall drifting six-figure exotics on a closed-off airport runway for a photographer. I have driven every new car on the American market and more supercars than I care to remember. I’ve been lucky enough to meet many of my heroes, the racers and artists and engineers who spend their lives pursuing speed, beauty, and genius. As with any job, there are bad days, but the best of them provide a glimpse of how humanity works and thinks and dreams.
And at the end of those magical days, I come home to my piles of crap.
Of the seven cars I own, five move under their own power. Just one was built in the last decade, and only two—a 1965 Ford Mustang fastback and a 1968 Alexis Formula Ford race car—could be said to have any real value. Lest you become envious, my entire collection, a term I use loosely, is worth less than a new pickup. I’ve always been this way. I’m 34 years old, and I have owned almost 40 cars. (I’d also note that I can’t stop, but my wife might read this, so let’s just say I can. Any time I want.)

Read the whole thing. Very much worth it.