PVP? It's officially over. VEATs win. (Okay, Fortunatas Specifically)

[Logan Darklighter]

Last night, I watched a Level 50 Widow take a Katana/Nin Stalker apart. Piece by bloody piece. Arena match. No buffs. No teaming. Just complete and total
ownage.

The Widow had to stand still and allow - I say again, ALLOW (because he told him to do it after the Stalker spent most of the match whiffing) the Stalker to
use every yellow he had and a build up, to hit the Widow with an Assassin Strike. He hit him ONCE. The ENTIRE match. Otherwise? Stalker couldn't hit him.
Period. Ever. And when they engaged, the Widow would take the guy apart in 10-15 seconds flat. Every time.

I watched this in utter disbelief. When the Stalker asked why he couldn't hit the Widow, the Widow responded that he had a Melee Defense of about 70. I
asked him later after the match what his other defenses were. He said his ranged was around 65. AOE about 61-ish.

70.

SEVENTY.

Widows don't get elude. So basically that's his defense ALL THE TIME.

Think about that for a minute. Let it sink slowly in. Feel it burn.

Now think about several Widows all BUFFING each other in a team. in Recluses Victory.

If you go to the entrance to RV in the Tech section of Atlas Park. On any given day, at any given time, chances are the map of RV is either mostly red, or well
on it's way to being so.

Now you know why.

When I built my MA/SR scrapper Cyberman 8, I built him with a partial eye to being survivable in PVP. Able to spot stalkers. He's got one of the highest
base accuracy modifiers on his attacks possible. His perception is maxed. He can take a first hit of AS and get away. (He has about 33 melee defense and 36
Ranged and AOE defense with his toggles running. Sure I can get 107 with Elude. But I can only use that for about 3 minutes out of 10.) I took him into RV
shortly after VEATs made it there. There was an Empath and a /Kin there buffing people at the exit of the Hero base. Didn't matter. Engage and die 10-30
seconds later. Engage and die. Engage and die.

Nope. No more PVP for me, thanks. Those zones no longer exist for me, except to maybe to get Shivans (because at least there, I can outrun people and stay on
the move). And Warburg, to get nukes.

Maybe. When the VEATs aren't making life miserable for people trying to do that.

I'll make the same recommendation and with the same intensity about VEATs that Cypher made to Neo in regards to Agents in the Matrix.

"You see one of those? ...You run. You run your ASS off!"

Zone PVP? Over. Done with. And forget about arena matches. No hero with any sense should engage a VEAT one on one. And no VEAT should ever be engaged unless
they're outnumbered at least 5 to 1. With about 2 out of that 5 being radiation debuffers.

Yeah, this is a rant. And it's about something in the game that I never made a #1 priority. So maybe it's kinda pathetic. But for awhile there, it was
reasonably fun to engage in. It was hardly balanced, and there were asshats who made life difficult. But I won as much as I lost. And I felt like I had some
moderate amount of skill, and that my build was halfway decent.

But it's an aspect of the game that's gone now. And even if/when I make a VEAT myself, it won't effectively be there, for the reasons I mentioned
above. I hate parts of the game being taken away from me for any reason. Sure, I'll be able to go into the Zones with god-like impunity and just smack down
any hero that gets in my way. Where's the sport in that, though?

I have to wonder if any of the RMT farmers are going to start making VEATs now. Oh wouldn't THAT be funny! Guess what! Villain-side prices go through the
frickkin ROOF once the RMT farmers figure THAT one out!

So - PVP may have been bad before. Arguably it was a bad idea to make it part of a game that wasn't designed for it in the first place. But now it's
officially dead and buried. And VEATs killed it.

[Wiregeek]

huh. Those are pretty low defense numbers on Cyberman..

I agree with PVP - though I've felt that PVP in CoX has been broken from day one.

plenty of PvE stuff left to do, though. And I can certainly bring Mag over to tank Warburg for ya.. Taunt still works OK on players
"No can brain today. Want cheezeburger."
From NGE: Nobody Dies, by Gregg Landsman
http://www.fanfiction.net/s/5579457/1/NGE_Nobody_Dies

[Logan Darklighter]

Low defense on C8? Howso? I've looked through the IO sets and I can't see a way to bump his melee defense any higher. Should I just forget set bonuses
from defense sets and slot straight regular IOs?

[OpMegs]

...wait.

A level 50....Widow.

As in, nonpromoted to Fortunata or Night Widow? Cause the former doesn't get Elude, but the latter certainly does.
---
"Oh, silver blade, forged in the depths of the beyond. Heed my summons and purge those who stand in my way. Lay
waste."

[Logan Darklighter]

I can't be certain, but I recall him saying (to the other guy) that he didn't have elude and didn't have access to it. Looked like Psi attacks
mostly. So maybe I got it wrong? Fortunata maybe?

[Wiregeek]

Low defense on C8? Howso? I've looked through the IO sets and I can't see a way to bump his melee defense any higher. Should I just forget set bonuses from defense sets and slot straight regular IOs?

If you can be arsed, could you post a Mids block for C8?

The 33-36 being 'low' came from the Scrapper forum on the official board - I may have forgotten to apply the grain of salt.

An amusing quote block from the official board.

I've used Elude three times in ~250 hours of /SR'ing.

Once when I first got it, so I could check out the animation.

A second time when Chimera was auto-hitting me with the bow and I failed at comprehending the AUTO part of AUTO-hit. (I could not brain that day, I had the dumb.)

And once because the Elude is right next to Weave on my clicky bar, and I missed. But hey, you never know, sometimes Wentworth's is a dangerous place.

"No can brain today. Want cheezeburger."
From NGE: Nobody Dies, by Gregg Landsman
http://www.fanfiction.net/s/5579457/1/NGE_Nobody_Dies

[Ankhani]

In my experience of PvP, this comming from Emet Stone/SS, Fortunata are rather broken. The are essentially a Psi Blaster, but they also have access to Mind
Control and can achive Super Reflexes level Defense or more (but with a toggle Mez Resist.) I'd offer to tank for you if it wasn't the huge GAPING MAW
of a hole in Psi Resist/Defense, taunt works for about 10 seconds during which they run about with super speed, and then resume their original target if they
can't hurt the tank, or layaway if it is a Fortu against a Invuln/ or Stone/ Tank..... Somewhat back to order, The Night Widows aren't too broken as
the Fortu are, and the Spiders are (to Emet at least) like any other Typical Stalker/Scrapper..

*Ahem*

Anway. Im my limited experience ( Level 25 Katana/SR ) with Super Reflexes, with Straight SOs I think Ican usually get (Edit to verify) 21.64% Melee (Toggle
only) and 30.42% (Toggle+Auto) Ranged, and when in full attack I can get upwards of ~84% Melee with Divine Avalance with Hasten. Maximum Defense I get is
Auto-firing my Divine Avalanche at 105%... With MA I don't know if there's much you can do to boost your defense. I'd have to fiddle with it.
---

The Master said: "It is all in vain! I have never yet seen a man who can perceive his own faults and bring the charge home against himself."

>Analects: Book V, Chaper XXVI

[Shader]

70% Melee? How many purple recipes did he have? and which leg was he trying to pull? Not that its impossible, but its is a specialized build - normal builds
that i've seen and that you'll see on the CoH forums clock in at substantially less.

Shader

[Wiregeek]

70% Melee must have included the 45% for Elude..
"No can brain today. Want cheezeburger."
From NGE: Nobody Dies, by Gregg Landsman
http://www.fanfiction.net/s/5579457/1/NGE_Nobody_Dies

[Acyl]

There are a few things I will note here.

The soft cap for defense versus an attack is +45%. This means that while you can push a character's defense higher
(all the way to the hard cap)...after +45% it mostly has no effect.

Due to the way attack mechanics and formulas work, having defense numbers past 45% will usually not help - the
additional defense past 45% will kick in if your opponent is using ToHit buffs (ie. Tactics, Aim, Build Up...ToHit buff is not the same as Accuracy slotting).
The additional defense will also provide a buffer against defense debuffs.

But.

In most cases, just remember that +45% defense is the magic number, and there's generally little point for most characters to exceed it in PvE. There is
some point in PvP, but only to a degree.

Watching what you've just said, I will hazard that the Stalker was not soft-capped for defense. That the Widow
was ... isn't strange. Many serious PvPers (and for that matter, many serious PvErs) pursue the defense soft cap
with religious fervour.

Cyberman 8 is not soft-capped for defense. 30%-ish defense to all areas is perfectly adequate for PvE, but it's
not near the cap. Increasingly, the thinking is that if you want to play a defense set in PvP, you got to push it to the limit. That'd be 45%.

Cyberman is an SR scrapper...it can be done. The trick is that you would have to specifically build for this.
We've argued this before, but I really do think, and will continue to insist...there is a difference between a build pimped out for PvP or PvE maximisation and one for concept. While you've claimed your concept
build for Cyberman is indeed very close to a maximised build...I dunno. I don't think that's likely the case.

I'll talk about how you can potentially reach the cap in a moment. Bear with me, I'll talk through VEATs first, then discuss how you'd do this for
an SR scrapper.

Now. A VEAT has an easier time reaching the soft cap, with power choices and simple SO-slotting alone, than any other defense-based AT. I am not familiar with
the numbers for Ice Tankers, but it can hit the magic 45% mark easier than any flavour of Super Reflexes, Energy Aura, or Ninjutsu.

Okay. That's true. The downside is they have absolutely no defense debuff resistance. And there are debuffs in the game that do not require a to-hit check
to land in the first place - Radiation Infection comes to mind, because I'm a Rad junkie. There are others. Mostly, though, this means that a Defender,
Controller, or Corruptor would have the best chance of punishing a VEAT built for soft-capped defense. I suspect this is supposed to be the balance factor.
Whether it works as balance is up to you, I can't really say. I'm not sure it does, but that's a different debate.

The other downside is that to push defense numbers like that while solo, a VEAT is sacrificing elsewhere. My own Bane
build is tight as hell because this is exactly what I'm doing. How does a VEAT cap defense? Mostly you want CT: Defensive and TT: Manuevers from your
secondary, regular pool Manuevers, Combat Jumping and Weave. Slot your Hide-equiv power for defense if you've got it, and in the case of the Widow
variants, which we're discussing here, Foresight and Mind Link. Yes, that is a LOT of powers. That's the trade-off. There's always a cost.

How about the other powersets? It's a similar sort of deal. Power choices are key.

Ninjutsu and Super Reflexes characters can nearly soft-cap defense on power choices alone. Putting aside Nin for the moment...if a SR scrapper takes (and
slots) Combat Jumping, Weave, and Manuevers, you'll hit 42.7% defense to ranged/melee/aoe based on even-level SO slotting - that is, white SOs only. Using
level 50 common IOs takes you to 43.4% defense, if my numbers are accurate (from Mids). This is within spitting range of the 45% soft-cap.

Now...Ninjutsu and SR are positional-defense sets. There are several IO sets (non-purple) that give melee/ranged/aoe defense bonuses...more so than sets that
give typed (ie. smash/lethal, fire, etc) defense, which is good news. However, I will note that the positional defense bonuses tend to be at the 5-slotted or
6-slotted mark in the bonus table, so going this route will almost certainly damage the effectiveness of certain powers. Again, that's the cost.

(For an MA/SR, look at melee sets Touch of Death and Mako's Bite, PBAoE sets Multi-Strike and Scirocco's Dervish, defense sets Red Fortune and possibly
Serendipity - there are also ranged attack, heal, immob and disorient sets that could potentially work depending on your power choices.)

In practice, I'd suggest trying to soft-cap an SR scrapper by a few power choices in that direction, and then possibly round it out with IO bonuses. The trick here is, you're probably not going to love the powers you end up with and how
they're slotted. But please bear in mind, to achieve high defense numbers a VEAT needs to make sacrifices too. Just because they have an easier job with it
doesn't mean it's trivial.

I would like to close with that reminder. I've seen a lot of vehemence thrown at VEATs by players in our group, and this saddens me. Not because I play a
VEAT, but because I don't think we're being entirely fair or rational. I'd like to think we're more civil and mature than the OMG WTF NERF LOL
crowd. F'example, there was a long rant on the channel about how Fortunatas are broken because they have both ranged psi damage and Elude, and whose bright
idea was it to give them Elude? Fortunatas with Elude was the point of the complaint.

As OpMegs noted, Fortunata branch does not have Elude. Elude is in the Night Widow branch. It may have been in the Blood Widow base branch at an earlier date
of beta, but it certainly is not now. This isn't an important point, though, it's almost tangential to the discussion at hand, but it is symptomatic of the trap we're falling into. For the record, Fortunatas don't have Elude. Night Widows do have Elude
and they get a handful of psi ranged attacks, but their ranged attacks are relatively weak - the worst for any VEAT
branch, IIRC. If you're fighting something with psi and elude, it's a Night Widow.

Unfair? I don't know. But as you can see, the numbers can be massaged in an SR scrapper's favour too. That was the point of this exercise.
-- Acyl

[Logan Darklighter]

I lucked out and encountered that VEAT I posted about above when I took a peak into RV just to see what was going on from the Villains POV. So I took a
snapshot of his powers. I have little to no clue about how this stuff works. But at least there's some inkling of what's going on. But yeah, looks like
a Fortunata. So I was wrong on that.

[Ankhani]

I'm not against VEATs, I just think that Fortunata are a bit too much. As I said, they are damage wise Psi Blasters (which do not only largely unresisted
damage but also -Recharge), but they alos have (soft perhaps) capped defense plus toggled mez protection, and a smattering of Mind Control powers. A bit to
much of a hybrid to stand up to... As for pointing out that Controllers/Defenders/Corrupters might be able to weaken them, I can't think of any set off
hand aside of Rad that gives -Defense, and when you put a Controller or Defender (to a lesser extent Corrupters, no Stalker-death for them) into Zone PvP like
Recluse's Victory, you'll get everyone and their little minions taking you down again, and again, and again.
---

The Master said: "It is all in vain! I have never yet seen a man who can perceive his own faults and bring the charge home against himself."

>Analects: Book V, Chaper XXVI

[Acyl]

I'm going to make an admission here. I actually agree Fortunatas specifically are overpowered. Actually, possibly
Night Widows as well.

I was simply taking the opposite tack for the devil's advocate point of view. =)

However, I think my complaint is different. I have an issue with Fortunatas and Night Widows only.

Banes and Crabs (ie. the Soldier branch) can't reach the same defense numbers that a Night Widow and Fortunata can. They just can't. While the Soldier
version of TT: Manuevers is more powerful than the Widow version, Widows also get Foresight, an additional passive defense power that makes up the difference.
So everything's equal there.

Right. Until we factor in Mind Link. Mind Link is an additional 15.6% defense fully slotted with SOs. It's a click power and doesn't itself take normal
recharge enhancements, but you can get some recharge crammed in there with Hami's and set IOs - ie. it will accept a Def/Rech enhancement. The devs are
aware of this - Castle himself explained how this trick works. At no point did he suggest it was an oversight.

Most powergamer Fortunatas (and Widows) also take Hasten and slot some recharge set bonuses, to perma or near-perma Mind Link. That is 15.6% defense above and
beyond anything that a Soldier can achieve.

Consider that for a moment.

...

On a different note, there are way more def debuff powers than just Rad Infection.

Let's take a look.

Defense Debuff Powers in Support Powersets

(All numbers base, unslotted, data according to Mids)

Cold - Infrigidate (Defender: -31.3%)

Rad - Radiation Infection (Def: -31.3%, Cont: -25%)

Sonic - Liquify (Def: -35.7%, Cont: -25%)

Storm - Freezing Rain (Def: -30%, Cont: -30%)

Trick Arrow - Acid Arrow (Def: -25%, Cont: -20%), Oil Slick Arrow (Def: -25%, Cont: -25%)

Thermal - Melt Armor (Cont: -20%)

Most control powers in the Earth Control powerset also have a -def component (-20%)

Also def debuff in attack sets like Broadsword/Katana (-7.5%) and Rad Blast (varies per attack between -12.5%, -25%, -37.5%, up to -50% for the nuke)

To be entirely fair, many of these powers do require an accuracy/tohit check to land on the target in the first place. But if you do, you can probably
keep hitting them subsequently.

Caveat: My comparison table here does not, however, take into account the duration of each defense debuff, nor the
ease of application. It may well be that Rad Infection is still the best tool for def debuff, as it is autohit, and it's a toggle, so it just stays up
indefinitely provided the user isn't mezzed, dead, etc. I do not have time currently to investigate this.
-- Acyl

[Logan Darklighter]

Okay. I'm revising my opinion now that I have a better picture of what's going on. I didn't know the breakdown of how the power sets work out for
VEATs and just assumed that they all were like that. In fact, I was foolish, because I should've remembered that I fought Skye's "Arachnos X"
character in an Arena duel and actually won pretty decisively. The crabs and others aren't that badly
overpowered.

So - I'll agree with Acyl, that it's the Fortunatas specifically that are overpowered with the Night
Widows being up there as well, possibly. I'll need to find out more.

I will say though, that a team of SOA are still going to overpower a team of regular heroes.

And a team of Fortunatas? Good lord.

Still think PVP is borked overall because of the VEATs (Fortunatas). That hasn't changed.

[Shader]

I went away and made said ok... they said a lvl 50 Widow had 70% Melee Defense. Prove that it can be done.

This was before I read the posts since my last post.

It can be done. Its a real ugly build - a respec type of build, not to sure how playable it would be.

It involves 4 Touch of Death by 6 sets, 3 Guassian by 6 sets, Mask Presence, the Steadfast Unique, the Autos, and a few lvl 50 Def IOs along with Combat Jumping.

The result? 26.1% Def for all expect Psi which is 14.9%. Melee 71.4% Range 44.8% AoE 46.7%

But as pointed out above, it can be easily nulified. Get a couple of -Def Debuff and all of a sudden you are made of sugar... A Rad troller and a scrapper or tanker with Focused Accuracy... with a dark/dark Defender working as team? Nothings getting through to them.
Shader

Villain Plan by Mids' Villain Designer 1.40

http://www.cohplanner.com/

Widow1: Level 50 Natural Arachnos Widow

Primary Power Set: Night Widow Training

Secondary Power Set: Widow Teamwork

Power Pool: Fitness

Power Pool: Leaping

Villain Profile:

Level 1: Poison Dart -- Thundr-Acc/Dmg/Rchg:50(A), Dev'n-Acc/Dmg/Rchg:50(3), Thundr-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx:50(3), Mael'Fry-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg:35(46), Dev'n-Dmg/EndRdx:50(46)

Level 1: Combat Training: Defensive -- DefBuff-I:50(A), DefBuff-I:50(9), DefBuff-I:50(13), DefBuff-I:50(37)

Level 2: Swipe -- T'Death-Acc/Dmg:40(A), T'Death-Dmg/EndRdx:40(5), T'Death-Dmg/Rchg:40(5), T'Death-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx:40(11), T'Death-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg:40(15), T'Death-Dam%:40(34)

Level 4: Tactical Training: Maneuvers -- DefBuff-I:50(A), DefBuff-I:50(9), DefBuff-I:50(15), DefBuff-I:50(17), EndRdx-I:50(37)

Level 6: Strike -- T'Death-Acc/Dmg:40(A), T'Death-Dmg/EndRdx:40(7), T'Death-Dmg/Rchg:40(7), T'Death-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx:40(11), T'Death-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg:40(17), T'Death-Dam%:40(36)

Level 8: Swift -- Run-I:50(A)

Level 10: Indomitable Will -- S'fstPrt-ResDam/Def+:28(A), ImpArm-ResPsi:40(40)

Level 12: Combat Jumping -- DefBuff-I:50(A), DefBuff-I:50(13)

Level 14: Super Jump -- SprngFt-EndRdx:50(A), ULeap-Stlth:50(46)

Level 16: Follow Up -- GSFC-ToHit:50(A), GSFC-ToHit/Rchg:50(19), GSFC-ToHit/Rchg/EndRdx:50(23), GSFC-Rchg/EndRdx:50(23), GSFC-ToHit/EndRdx:50(25), GSFC-Build%:50(25)

Level 18: Health -- Heal-I:50(A), Heal-I:50(19)

Level 20: Stamina -- EndMod-I:50(A), EndMod-I:50(21), EndMod-I:50(21)

Level 22: Mental Training -- Run-I:50(A)

Level 24: Mask Presence -- DefBuff-I:50(A), DefBuff-I:50(27)

Level 26: Foresight -- ResDam-I:50(A), DefBuff-I:50(27), DefBuff-I:50(43)

Level 28: Placate -- RechRdx-I:50(A), RechRdx-I:50(29), RechRdx-I:50(29)

Level 30: Eviscerate -- T'Death-Acc/Dmg:40(A), T'Death-Dmg/EndRdx:40(31), T'Death-Dmg/Rchg:40(31), T'Death-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx:40(31), T'Death-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg:40(34), T'Death-Dam%:40(36)

Level 32: Slash -- T'Death-Acc/Dmg:40(A), T'Death-Dmg/EndRdx:40(33), T'Death-Dmg/Rchg:40(33), T'Death-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx:40(33), T'Death-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg:40(34), T'Death-Dam%:40(37)

Level 35: Tactical Training: Assault -- EndRdx-I:50(A), EndRdx-I:50(36)

Level 38: Mind Link -- GSFC-ToHit:50(A), GSFC-ToHit/Rchg:50(39), GSFC-ToHit/Rchg/EndRdx:50(39), GSFC-Rchg/EndRdx:50(39), GSFC-ToHit/EndRdx:50(40), GSFC-Build%:50(40)

Level 41: Spin -- M'Strk-Acc/Dmg:50(A), M'Strk-Dmg/EndRdx:50(42), M'Strk-Dmg/Rchg:50(42), M'Strk-Acc/EndRdx:50(42), M'Strk-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx:50(43), M'Strk-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg:50(43)

Level 44: Elude -- RechRdx-I:50(A), RechRdx-I:50(45), DefBuff-I:50(45), EndMod-I:50(45)

Level 47: Tactical Training: Leadership -- GSFC-ToHit:28(A), GSFC-ToHit/Rchg:28(48), GSFC-ToHit/Rchg/EndRdx:28(48), GSFC-Rchg/EndRdx:28(48), GSFC-ToHit/EndRdx:28(50), GSFC-Build%:28(50)

Level 49: Combat Training: Offensive -- Acc-I:50(A), Acc-I:50(50)

------------

Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)

Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)

Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)

Level 1: Conditioning

------------

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[Acyl]

Adding on to what Micro said, and in addendum to my own post about def debuff powers on the heroside of the game.

It bears mentioning that what I quoted were unslotted def debuff numbers. Def debuff takes Schedule A enhancements,
meaning that if we run up into the ED limits as we normally try to do in slotting...as an example, Infrigidate goes
from the base -31.3% def debuff I listed to like -51.4% def debuff.

Now, I grant you, while all the powers I listed do -def, you wouldn't want to slot all of 'em for -def...for
many of those powers do -def in addition to other debuffs.

But debuffs look to be the thing to take spiders down. I note that increasingly a lot of regular 'crunchy' powersets have resistance to certain
debuffs. The dark and electric armors resist endurance drain, for instance. Most regular defense sets heavily resist defense...welp, there's nothing of the
sort here.

I'm not sure I like this as a balancing equation, though, if this was the dev's thinking. Aside from Radiation Infection, all the def debuff powers I
listed...I think they all need to-hit checks themselves...eh, well, pros and cons to that really. Toggle debuffs have their own weaknesses in PvP.

However, it's nice to know a Rad can autohit anchor a Fortunata and make over 51% of their preciously hoarded defense just evaporate. Bonus points if it's a defender with Rad Blast for the follow up, or an Earth controller to smother you beneath a
crushing stony embrace. 'specially considering Rad Blast and Earth Control have traditionally been laughed at in PvP.

Now.

I've done arena matches with a full team of 8 defenders. Most of 'em with leadership toggles.

Crushed. Everything. Flat.

That, I think, is the answer to the VEAT team in PvP. A defender team. Possibly some controllers to taste. Stack leadership toggles as well - bearing in mind that leadership buffs do cap, I suspect (though I don't
have numbers to back it up) that at the extreme end the defenders would have bonuses that are, in effect just as good.
Remember, what VEATs do, anyone else can do - to lesser effect, perhaps, but...

One or two empaths with clear mind - status protection and increased perception, though Tactics would do for the +per as well (need some way to help spot the
bad guys from hide). Forcefielders would help with mez protection also, though keeping people within the big bubble is insanely difficult in PvP. Aside from
that though, the stacked debuffs (Rad, Dark, Storm, Cold, etc) and other mutual buffs (too many to list) a defender
team would bring to the table should have extreme effect.

That's a team solution. As for solo PvP?

One of the most common and successful solo hunter PvP builds villainside was the Ice/Cold corruptor. Less popular lately, but I fought several back when I did
zone stuff...in fact this was one reason why villain PvPers were initially unhappy when I12 was launched - damn devs are giving Defenders our best PvP sets!
-- Acyl