"Non serviam" (A plot bunny?)

[TheTwisted1]

I just watched "The Adjustment Bureau." And there was something that kept coming to my mind throughout. We see that despite their powers, the "Adjusters" don't seem to be any stronger or tougher physically than a human. Further, we learned from Harry Mitchell (the friendly Adjuster) that their manpower and resources are spread thin. Most importantly though, was where Harry said that the Adjusters live "a lot longer" than humans, meaning that they aren't immortal; and if something can die, then it can be killed.

So, what if David, or someone like him, rather than merely resist the Adjustment Bureau, as seen in the film, but instead make war upon them, and kill Adjusters, looting their hats so as to be able to, at some point, invade their realm with others, and wreck the "offices," breaking and burning the stacks and files? Or show the Bureau why violating Evil Overlord Rule #1 is a bad idea? If one were to make a large enough dent (and from what we saw, one would have a reasonable shot at doing so), one could make them too few in number and resources to maintain "The Plan," freeing humanity from their grasp, or at least forcing "The Chairman" to reveal itself.

[In case you can't tell, I think "Rage Against the Heavens" is a seriously underused trope. For example, my favorite fantasy work is "His Dark Materials", and with regards to Bleach, I'm far more sympathetic to Sosuke Aizen than to Soul Society.]

--The Twisted One

"I've got a fever, and the only cure is more dead angels." --Bayonetta
"If you
wish to converse with me, define your
terms."

--Voltaire

[hmelton]

Never saw this movie, had to look up the plot and read the spoilers, I do remember reading the short story way back in the late 1980's or early 1990's that the movie was vaguely based on.

They mentioned something about the Roman empire and the dark ages, which got me to thinking about how old their organization must be and how human the Bureaucrats and "Adjusters" were that were running it.

Ever heard of the "Iron Law of Bureaucracy", I would think it would apply to this adjuster Bureaucracy in a really HUGE way.

A quick thumbnail of the main idea of the Iron Law of B is that "any long term human Bureaucracy will eventually become self serving".

In other words the Bureaucrats running any organization will eventually modify the operating procedures and goals for that organization to serve themselves(the bureaucracy) and not what the organization originally purpose and goals were.

This implies the a Bureaucracy will always grow larger with fewer and fewer workers actually doing the job the Bureaucrats were hired to support.

Good examples include the American FDA and pretty much any large state supported university any where in the world that is more than 75 years old.

You don't see many examples in the free market business world, because they usually suffocate under the huge growth of paper pushing Bureaucrats and go bankrupt unless there is an external force supporting them.

In this adjuster universe I'd be tempted to think the Dark ages and world wars have more to do with rival bureaucrats fighting for positions, than with free will, especially for an organization that supposedly can trace it's history back to the roman empire.

Long term Bureaucracies aren't noted for making sane decisions and their decisions often start matching the criteria used to determine if someone is clinically insane after only say 50 years of uninterrupted operation.

Don't believe me about the insane bureaucracy statement? I ask you to remember the recent idea where a certain government organization actually thought it would help to solve drug related gang crimes if they facilitated these gangs access to weapons.

Now image how badly insane the Bureaucracy for a 2000 plus year old organization will be.

Hopefully this has given you some ideas about expanding this plot bunny.

hmelton

[CattyNebulart]

@hmelton

Citation needed, that sounds about as crackpot as an alien abduction story.

For how insane the bureaucracy would be look at how the Roman bureaucracy kept going for roughly a millennia after the fall of Rome.
E: "Did they... did they just endorse the combination of the JSDF and US Army by showing them as two lesbian lolicons moving in together and holding hands and talking about how 'intimate' they were?"
B: "Have you forgotten so soon? They're phasing out Don't Ask, Don't Tell."

[Necratoid]

Even if not an offical trope... this is basically what happens to every veil ever instituted... eventually the main reason for the veil is not to cover up the supernatural, but instead to cover up what has been done to protect the veil.  This is evident in Harry Potter with all the mental editing... I'm personally convinced that the MiB are now having the issue that if they ever stop neuralizing people and the truth came out that thousands would go berserk or need a rubber room as all the suggestions come undone at the same time.  Actually, the best reason I've heard for a veil is from FSN and that rest of that verse... magic works better the less people that actually know how that spell works... they call them mysteries for a reason.  Break the veil and some idiot will try to open source everything... which will cause that mystery to stop working as the power of the mystery is spread out through to many people to actually do anything.
As 'The Adjustment Bureau' has concluded that the problem is 'free will' and not how they only count people as having 'free will' on occasions where things are snarled up beyond their ability to control things.  I get the feeling that 'free will' is a coorperate buzzword for 'we have written are plans into a corner'.  From context, I'm guessing that David had begun building up an immunity to their manipulations.  I don't think him not making a concession speech was in the 'plan' at all.   I mean they actually were trying to bribe him into cooperating with the 'plan' with the presidency... rather than just making it so.  From inference... I don't think the Archduke was schedualled for assasssination.
I'm running off the wiki article, but I'm guessing 'free will' incidents are more common that they like to admit... want to take that group down?  Just have David meet some people from the resistance.   The Adjustment Bureau seems to lack the manpower to control everything at once.  So I'm guessing they pick high value targets.  David meeting a girl in a bathroom stall and making an inspirational speech is just high level and random enough to draw their fire.  Note they wanted to 'reset' his campaign manger and not David himself.  David seems to have beaten their 'destined' candiate from left field and the movie is about stalling/black mailing David into submission rather than anything else.  If The Adjustment Bureau had the level of control they claimed, David should have been randomly assassinated in a 'mugging gone wrong' rather than the rest of the movie.
---
I think the citation is (as your vague on what your calling BS on):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerry_Pournelle
If you want a blatent example of that law... pick a labor union in the US... basically any of them.  For me, the point of a labor union is to form, address issues between the employers and employee, resolve the issue and then dissolve as its served its purpose.  The union reforms only when they are actually needed to address afor this purpose.  After the 1930-40s they kind of became permenent (often mob run) fixtures in the work place.  In order to keep a temporary institution around this long they eventually have to have full time employees who look for and find issues to be addressed.  Even if they have to make something up... in fact the point of the union is then to find excuses to keep the union around.  Its literal job is to validate its own existance rather that being the force that bridges the gap between workers and boss.  This strangled the industries these perment unions latched onto... today the US has only around 7% of the private work force in unions.
Teachers unions and nursing unions are infamous for chaining contract negoiations... they keep ranting to the press about not how long they've gone without a contract... then stalling the contract negotiations out for an average of 18 months after the old one expires.  Then they start in on negotiating the next contract a few months later.  Which will drag out until 18 months or so after that contract expires.

[robkelk]

Teachers unions and nursing unions are infamous for chaining contract negoiations... they keep ranting to the press about not how long they've gone without a contract... then stalling the contract negotiations out for an average of 18 months after the old one expires.  Then they start in on negotiating the next contract a few months later.  Which will drag out until 18 months or so after that contract expires.

Different circumstances (different employer, different union, different field), but it isn't always the union's fault. My union wanted to get a contract in place quickly, but despite repeated requests, the employer didn't meet with the union until 12 months after the contract ended, is only willing to have negotiation meetings once a month, and wasn't willing to talk about salaries until six meetings in.
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."

- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012

[CattyNebulart]

I was mostly calling BS on the whole anti bureaucracy rant, such as; "Long term Bureaucracies aren't noted for making sane decisions and their decisions often start matching the criteria used to determine if someone is clinically insane after only say 50 years of uninterrupted operation."

Since as noted there are many bureaucracies older than that. Anyway discussion of this sort is probably better off in the politics forum.

Also unions in Europe seem to work fairly well, it must be something in the water in the USA (actually it has more to do with history).
E: "Did they... did they just endorse the combination of the JSDF and US Army by showing them as two lesbian lolicons moving in together and holding hands and talking about how 'intimate' they were?"
B: "Have you forgotten so soon? They're phasing out Don't Ask, Don't Tell."

[hmelton]

CattyNebulart I was thinking of the almost exact opposite view implied in this movie and using that opposite view formulated into a real world theory (Iron Law) to enhance or expand the science fiction fanfic idea in a direction most people primed by the movie would not be looking. 
Citation?(This isn't the proper forum and I see unions have been brought up so I'll start a thread in "Politics and other Fun" called "IRON LAW")
It wasn't my purpose with using the "Iron Law" to start a argument I was simply taking a plot device or tropism formulated into a theory or Law  by a science fiction writer and using it to expand a science fiction story. (See "IRON LAW" in "Politics and other Fun"
Sorry CattyNebulart, I thought everyone on this list was familiar with the plot device or idea that organization/groups Bureaucracies degenerate and recognized it as a standard plot device.
The "Iron Law "  was proposed or created by a science fiction writer and the above story is science fiction, like all science fiction stories I included a little real world in the idea more to set an example.
Plenty of fiction goes the other direction and claims that the public can't make good decision and needs a organization of experts to make the decisions for them, often in secret.  
In this movie you have the view at it's foundations that humans as a group or "mob" can't make good choices and must have a group of experts make decisions or millions die, justice is destroyed and horrors are unleashed.
Westerns use the plot device of mobs or crowds being evil in the form of Lynchings and not being able to give justice instead you need sheriffs,  judges, lawyers and juries to get justice.
fantasy such as "Buffy the Vampire Slayer" uses the idea or excuse that if the public ever found out that "vampires were real" then everything would degenerate into middle ages with "Witchcraft trails" and mobs chasing and burning anything that was different.  Buffy also use something close to the "Iron Law" for the watchers council and it's corruption.. 
Also science fiction like the thread starter "The Adjustment Bureau" or "Men in Black" and to a lesser extent the "Stargate" series make use of the idea that somehow there is knowledge that the  public doesn't need to know and that special groups or Bureaucracies must exist to keep this knowledge secret and to deal with it in the name of all humanity.

Again Sorry Catty I was using the "Iron Law" to head the fanfic idea in a direction the movie was priming people not to see.
Also I'd love to see citations for and against the "Iron law" just remember to put them in the thread"IRON LAW  I'm about to start in "Politics and other Fun"
howard melton
God Bless