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A Wikia TV Tropes Mirror project look for interested parties
06-17-2012, 09:39 PM
I know I mentioned this before on the other thread, but I'll mention it again for anyone who is interested.
A guy called Anime Addict is trying to make his own Wikia style TV Tropes like website, located here:
http://tvtropesmirror.wikia.com/wiki/Main_Page
His goal is to bend every effort to make the site as much like TV Tropes, within the limits of Wikia code, not to mention he plans to throw up everything TV Tropes is taking down in some form or fashion as long as Wikia doesn't object.
Unfortunately, his biggest problems is that he needs help.
I've spoken with the guy, even gave him a link to the torrent/DDL links because honestly, I want another alternative to TV Tropes to exist (in fact, the more TV Tropes monopoly is reduced, the better in my book), and so far, he's gotten a pretty good head start, he's an extremely reasonable guy who was very supportive of the efforts to archive TV Tropes and what they were censoring, and right now, he needs people willing to donate their time (if possible) to help him out, especially in porting over trope and work pages and formatting them to Wikia format.
The Wikia website was originally owned by Jack Butler (who now is owner of The Trope Wiki), but after he decided he didn't like Wikia formatting and went with a Wikipedia style setup, Anime Addict adopted the domain, and is currently bending every effort to make his site replicate all the essentials of TVT.
He also has decided to roll back the clock somewhat on some policies of TVT that he didn't like, such as nuking some of the more interesting discussion pages, homogenizing witty trope names into something bland and sterile, and generally, he just wants people to have fun because he agrees TV Tropes in its current state is turning into a place riddled with Serious Business types, and he wants to make a more casual alternative.
If you're interested, please check out the site.
NOTE: Despite his name, he is neutral on what works and tropes can be ported, and has told me personally he holds no bias against any media, eastern or western, and believes firmly that if can be troped, it should be troped.
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... It's still wikia.
Do not want.
-Morgan.
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Morganni Wrote:... It's still wikia.
Do not want. this.so_much
Moving to the Wikia wiki farm is the moral equivalent of changing the leadership of the Manor Farm from humans to pigs. I suppose I should mention tropesmirrorwiki.org, for the sake of completeness, but that's like letting the tigers run the farm. I guess I'm just being an orangutan, skeptical of changes in my cages, but I think that we should wait for something better to come up. Let's try to find someone who will run the site like Bitzer runs his farm.
-- ∇×V
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I forgot to add he is also aware people would like to make a wiki in something other than Wikia format, and he also asked me to not only bless the efforts of those who do so, he even offered to donate his time to helping any one else's wiki projects.
So for those of us who aren't wiki mavens, is there a good site that breaks down the comparative feature-sets of different wiki platforms?
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See here for a comparison of wiki software: http://en.wikipedia.org/w...parison_of_wiki_software
See here for a comparison of wiki farms: http://en.wikipedia.org/w...Comparison_of_wiki_farms
Software matters because that is what determines things like how we want the wiki to behave.
The farm matters because that how the host's behavior is determined.
Do note, however, the two items are not mutually inclusive. With some farms they will let you run a different type of software than what they offer. Conversely, if you already have webserver space that has the bandwidth and services to properly accommodate a wiki, then it is simply a matter of acquiring the software and implementing it.
blackaeronaut Wrote:See here for a comparison of wiki software: http://en.wikipedia.org/w...parison_of_wiki_software
See here for a comparison of wiki farms: http://en.wikipedia.org/w...Comparison_of_wiki_farms
Software matters because that is what determines things like how we want the wiki to behave.
The farm matters because that how the host's behavior is determined.
Do note, however, the two items are not mutually inclusive. With some farms they will let you run a different type of software than what they offer. Conversely, if you already have webserver space that has the bandwidth and services to properly accommodate a wiki, then it is simply a matter of acquiring the software and implementing it. Right. Thanks! TVTropes runs on PMWiki, I'm told. Is that generally considered the superior option for this sort of thing? My reading of the PMWiki site suggests it's pretty extensible.
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As I recall, TVTropes runs on heavily-extended PMWiki. To the degree that whether basic PMWiki is the software of choice is no longer really relevant, in my opinion.
-- Bob
---------
Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.
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It might still make a good place to start, given that the syntax is mostly stock. Patching up what isn't would probably be a simpler task than asking people to learn an entirely new format.
-Morgan.
Well, I'm trying to figure out what I should actually look at learning. I have a couple of personal RPG campaign wikis on Wetpaint right now, and that's kind of a pain in the butt - too slow, too often. So I may end up doing some kind of minor wiki of my own to replace those, soon, and I was thinking a small PMWiki site might be a good idea for practice - just in case we would get a new version of TVTropes up and running. If there are other Wiki software packages out there that I should look at, though..
I'm open to suggestions!
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Most of the syntax is stock, but the link syntax isn't stock at all. None of the links will work on a default install. Enabling WikiWords is pretty easy, but every page is going to have to be put through a translator anyway.
We need to look at this through a broader point of view, anyway. If you were making a new wiki about the tropes in media today, what would you do?
What would you call it?
What features are important?
Does it need to have attached forums? If so, what should be the scope of those forums?
How would you organize works and tropes?
Would Web 2.0 (beta) features like WYSIWYG editing be useful?
Is it important to keep the same format for legacy users?
Since we'll be moving to new software anyway, we might as well do an assessment of what features we need now. A little planning now will save us tons of time in the future. If you have technical expertise in wikis, scripting languages, or databases, and are willing to contribute some time, make a note of it in the thread. My current software stack is Mac OS/Apache/SQLite/Perl, but I'm adaptable. The person I convinced to host the project uses lighthttpd and PHP (and is currently developing his own wiki in PHP and Javascript). There's still a good chance we might go with PmWiki anyway, but it's still up in the air.
Anyway, lets keep it to technical concerns for now. I don't want to get too far off into community standards type things until we actually have a wiki to talk about these things on. Also: see http://www.wikimatrix.org/ for even-more-than-you-ever-wanted-to-know comparisons of wiki software.
-- ∇×V
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Quote:What would you call it?
AllTheTropes.org (In fact, I entered the forums just now to suggest that domain -- and it happens to be free right now, according to GoDaddy.) Quote:Does it need to have attached forums? If so, what should be the scope of those forums?
No. I feel rather strongly about that -- the forums at TVTropes have become the home of an entire subculture who seem to think that if you don't participate there, you're not a real troper. Go back to the bog-standard discussion page for each entry, and maybe a few dedicated discussion pages.
Quote:How would you organize works and tropes?
Actually, I was just thinking about this about an hour ago as I was mowing the lawn. Do we really need works pages? We're collecting the tropes and memes, and we'll obviously cite works as examples, but quite frankly, the collection of works at TVT was starting to outweigh the tropes. It's beginning to morph into a catalogue of fiction and the devices it uses, instead of the other way around. And it won't ever stop -- new works will always be created faster than new tropes.
Quote:Would Web 2.0 (beta) features like WYSIWYG editing be useful?
Sure, but it's not a deal-breaker.
Quote:Is it important to keep the same format for legacy users?
No.
-- Bob
---------
Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.
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Quote:No. I feel rather strongly about that -- the forums at TVTropes have become the home of an entire subculture who seem to think that if you don't participate there, you're not a real troper. Go back to the bog-standard discussion page for each entry, and maybe a few dedicated discussion pages.
I'll agree completely. From a practical standpoint, not including a forum also removes a lot of bandwidth and database transaction requirements. And having a forum will only amplify a cliquish nature among users and discourage contribution.
Quote:Actually, I was just thinking about this about an hour ago as I was mowing the lawn. Do we really need works pages? We're collecting the tropes and memes, and we'll obviously cite works as examples, but quite frankly, the collection of works at TVT was starting to outweigh the tropes. It's beginning to morph into a catalogue of fiction and the devices it uses, instead of the other way around. And it won't ever stop -- new works will always be created faster than new tropes.
I find the work's pages quite helpful. They serve as a sort of review page. In fact, this is how I found and started using TvT. The Works pages gave me what, at the time, was an honest opinion about the content of a particular.... well.... work. There are quite a few series I've picked up *because* of TvT, most recently something called RideBack. You can't have one without the other, really. It's something that really worked with the site. Not only could you find tropes that interested you, you could find works that would also contained that tropes. It was also possible to go in the other direction. It was possible to find a work you liked, find the tropes within it, then find other works with similar tropes.
One leads in to the other, if that makes sense. In general, TvT also made a useful review site, almost by accident.
Quote:Would Web 2.0 (beta) features like WYSIWYG editing be useful?
So long as it's possible to use an alternative. WYSIWYG can be finnicky at best. I've ended up fighting them, as much as I've ended up using them.
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--m(^0^)m-- Wot, no sig?
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Dartz Wrote:Quote:Would Web 2.0 (beta) features like WYSIWYG editing be useful?
So long as it's possible to use an alternative. WYSIWYG can be finnicky at best. I've ended up fighting them, as much as I've ended up using them. I would second doing this. While WYSIWYG is nice, it's even nicer to have the option to toggle a code display when one needs it, either because the edit tools won't let you do a particular thing (easily or at all), or because you have a snippet of text that's already got the appropriate tags in it to paste right in.
--
"You know how parents tell you everything's going to fine, but you know they're lying to make you feel better? Everything's going to be fine." - The Doctor
Well, by day, I'm an Oracle DBA. Never done MySQL, but eh - I'm good with general principles of relational databases. I also was a freelance web designer waaaay back in the day when CSS was a new thing, so I'm not totally incompetent at presentation, but my skills in that arena are rusty at best. I also learn things quickly.
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Don't do MySQL. Do PostgreSQL instead, or SQLite for small file-based databases.
WYSIWYG without some sort of code fallback is quite annoying to me, so that's not going to happen. Typically the fallback is HTML which isn't ideal to me, but it's not that bad. GUI editors lower the barrier for entry, which can be both a good and a bad thing.
Not having work pages would have a huge impact on site organization. Works link to pages, and pages link to works, for the most part. Without work pages to link to, walled gardens would start to spring up. While I realize that work pages aren't the core of the site, so to speak, people use the wiki in different ways. I've used it to find interesting anime to watch, and some people try to tout their favorite works. I think we probably should accommodate different uses such as this (to an extent, anyway). I also wouldn't be reading your fic, Bob, if there wasn't a wiki page on it. (But keep the questions like this coming; they're important to consider.)
As far as a name, AllTheTropes isn't bad. I can't come up with any names that aren't pun-based, and I'm afraid StarshipTropers.org and Trope-A-Dope.org are not going to go over that well. Tropes.tv is also unregistered, but that sounds like a lolsuit waiting to happen.
And in terms of forums, I'm not really sold on the need yet. TRS and Special Efforts were useful. However, there are tons of other sites out there where you can discuss the media you like, and very few that invite media analysis.
I'd like to preserve the namespaces (i.e. subpages) to keep things organized. PmWiki has an extension for a third subpage (and only 3 -- 5 is right out!), so one could potentially have Manga/MahouSenseiNegima,TropesA-D or Webcomic/Xkcd,Characters. But other software does subpages better, so I'm going to keep looking.
-- ∇×V
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I'll back down on the works thing. It was just something I was musing about in between the heart-pounding moments of lawn-mowing excitement.
-- Bob
---------
Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.
vorticity Wrote:Don't do MySQL. Do PostgreSQL instead, or SQLite for small file-based databases. I think the database might be fairly large in the long run, are you sure SQLite would scale appropriately? Or did you just mean for my personal wiki for my campaigns?
I'm of the opinion that works pages are a good thing - I've found them useful when researching new shows to seek out and watch. And they're a great entry point for bringing people to the site - just show them the page for their favorite show, and wiki magic will suck them in.
As far as names, I actually had brainstormed a few when I was briefly considering doing something solo - Tropia and Metamedia were options I pondered. I think AllTheTropes works fine.
On editing.. yeah, it's really handy to be able to go to code when necessary. I do like WetPaint's WYSIWIG, but sometimes I have to fight it.
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The MySQL thing was just general advice. MySQL and MariaDB are far behind other DBs in features at this point, with a few exceptions. There are probably too many concurrency issues to effectively use SQLite for a website of this nature, but it works great for home projects and personal wikis. They recommend using a different RDBMS for over 100K website requests a day, which, given there are nearly 200K pages of content, would rule it out.
Anyway, I was discussing this with a friend, who reminded me that all wiki software sucks. With that in mind, I decided to make a list of features that I felt were absolutely necessary, and those with lower priority. Please tell me if there's anything that I missed, or feel free to quibble about the ranking:
Must have:
* No ads: no excuses.
* Spoiler markup
* Folder Control: make a way to hide a div on a click.
* Image uploads.
* Indexes: ability to tag/categorize pages
* Subpages: at least 2 level pages.
* Talk pages: Discussion Pages
* LinksHere: backlinks aka related pages
* Logins
* Unicode support
Should probably have:
* A context element that lists all of a page's subpages.
* A comments bar (form): to replicate YTTKW; also good for user (talk) pages.
Nice things:
* Index Trace: navigation through indeces ()
* Subpages: at least 3 level pages, preferably arbitrary.
* Custom page titles OR unicode pagename support (e.g. Ranma ½)
* Includes
* Full page histories
Low priority:
* Tables: I never see tabular data in the tropes
* Colored text markup
* Floating boxes: markup like [[floatboxright:] isn't all that necessary
* Page templates
Iffy:
* GUI Editor: Nice, but maybe too nice -- possibly attracts the wrong kind of user.
Should not have:
* Integrated forums. If they're absolutely necessary, they can be done separately. Trope repair can be handled through the talk pages. Removing forums avoids community split, and there are countless sites on the web to discuss your favorite shows.
-- ∇×V
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Quote:The MySQL thing was just general advice.
Exactly what is wrong with MySQL (other than the fact that anything Oracle touches turns into a pain to install), and how does that offset the advantage of it having a very large installed base (which leads to a large group of people familiar with it and willing to offer help for free)?
Quote:possibly attracts the wrong kind of user
Caution: thus begins the path that Fast Eddie has walked down.
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."
- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012
That feature set sounds pretty solid. I'm not as against WYSIWIG or forums, personally, but I'm not actually terribly active on TVTropes as a contributor so I may not be as aware of the issues that the forums seem to have engendered, so I'm content to go with the wisdom of the crowd on tthose issues. Though software with optional WYSIWIG / forums would be nice, so we can have it off to begin with, and turn it on later should we change our minds.
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robkelk Wrote:Quote:possibly attracts the wrong kind of user
Caution: thus begins the path that Fast Eddie has walked down. I can't imagine what would be "wrong" about a user who prefers a GUI editor.
-- Bob
---------
Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.
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The wrong kind of user is the one who doesn't think before he edits. Learning wiki code is a low-pass barrier to entry, that essentially requires one to read a single page before editing. GUI editors allow a person to edit without investing any time in learning about the system or the community. If it wasn't worth posting in the first place, having to actually learn something in order to make a first post is often deterrent enough.
Now, this is balanced by the fact that you might get some really good, literary users who are less technically savvy. And openness to everyone is an inherent good for a wiki. I was probably a little glib in writing that, as it was for a list, but having a GUI would have significant effects on the userbase. And on the kind of contributions we'd get. Now, if that's somewhere you want to go as a community, I'm happy with that (in spite of the technical overhead). But I just don't want to pretend like it has no effect.
Though honestly, maybe the Altar of Literacy would make a better test for new users than something that was feature-based.
Edit: And speaking of not thinking before I write: my last post.
-- ∇×V
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I tend to be a bit wary of WYSIWIG editors, since a lot of them make what is internally very bad code. Which is bad enough when you're just sticking it up someplace. When other people are going to be coming along and further editing it...
Now, a preview function, that's something that seems highly useful and one I don't think TVT has.
-Morgan.
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Morganni Wrote: Now, a preview function, that's something that seems highly useful and one I don't think TVT has. It does, and I use it every time I make an edit.
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