All The Tropes Wiki Project

[GethN7]

To back up vorticity's points, I'd like to add the following:

On Wikia, unless it's outright pornography or just being crude and disgusting with no real point behind it, they don't care what is posted. I take the same position, with the added caveat that as long as what is being discussed is legal to talk about and "within the scope of the wiki", I too turn a blind eye. TV Tropes has the problem of having both overly restrictive ad sponsors and the even more crippling problem of having one man (Fast Eddie) whose personal feeling are allowed shape policy with or without community discussion.

The combination of the two has resulted in multiple sections of the wiki being censored to avoid being "controversial" and to enforce a "Happiness Is Mandatory" atmosphere.

While I believe in encouraging if not enforcing a civil, polite atmosphere, the "Happiness Is Mandatory" policy is frankly, one of the dumbest things Fast Eddie has ever imposed on TV Tropes, and while I still feel most of the detractors of TV Tropes are full of crap, I can't deny their accusations of FE trying to create a "hugbox" are rather spot on. As for avoiding controversy, that annoys me because almost anything can cause controversy, and in an informal atmosphere (like the one we are trying to create), an ideal stance is that everyone who joins the site should agree in advance that they acknowledge they may not agree with everything on the site but will still elect to remain civil despite their personal feelings.

That's a general guideline, and should not be imposed as a decree (it would be nigh impossible to enforce anyway), but joining the site should have that as a prerequisite in some form, at least if I have interpreted the consensus on this issue properly.

If we were to host the site on MediaWiki like we plan, I know of a few solutions we could try that would require the users agree to a general terms of use or some other sort of site policy before joining, and once the legalese in question has been drawn up, it should be rather simple to implement in technical terms.

 

[Tennie]

I just want to find the sweet spot between Stop Having Fun Guys and Tragedy of the Commons.  I think that's somewhere left of TVT's 5P and off to the right of Linus Torvalds' management by perkele.

To be frank, I'm also in the same boat.  I want a place that is quite informal and welcoming, but is also able to get rid of stuff that shouldn't belong without going overboard.

I agree with the No Lewdness/No Prudishness policy -- though I hate the name.

Well then, we'll need to come up with an alternate name that nonetheless captures the same general spirit of the policy.  If anyone has any ideas, post them here!

I firmly believe that we shouldn't judge our self-worth based on others.  Goons mock people.  It's what they do.  TVT has a very strong group of yes-men who will mock us no matter what we do.

I merely phrased it that way as a way of suggesting that, should ATT become a cesspit, even TVT's criticisms would be justifiable.  The part about becoming a cesspit is something that I don't want to see happen.
Besides, I will (for the most part) take the stance of "haters gonna hate, mockers gonna mock".

All I did was post some theses on a wiki page, and somehow I was excommunicated from TVT.  So now I'm leading a revolution, setting up a new site that will become the moderate alternative.

In that case, I honestly hope that it doesn't lead to anything like an internet version of the Thirty Years' War (and what a clusterfuck that war was...).

As for avoiding controversy, that annoys me because almost anything can cause controversy, and in an informal atmosphere (like the one we are trying to create), an ideal stance is that everyone who joins the site should agree in advance that they acknowledge they may not agree with everything on the site but will still elect to remain civil despite their personal feelings.

This is pretty much one major point of mine.  I too would like an atmosphere that is at once informal and civil.  I personally don't like getting dragged into intense, vitriolic debates, but a debate where (A.) participants remain civil and (B.) that I have knowledge/information that I feel I could contribute with is the kinds of debate that I can actually enjoy.

[Labster]

In that case, I honestly hope that it doesn't lead to anything like an
internet version of the Thirty Years' War (and what a clusterfuck that
war was...).

-- ∇×V

[Morganite]

I don't want to see ATT's administration be eventually faced with the same problem that confronted the administrations of Reddit and TVT last year: a large section of rather unsavory types, hidden within the overall community, that hadn't been properly handled for so long that it required outside intervention (whether from SA, Google, some other source(s), or a combination) in order to force the admins to finally do something about them.

Frankly, I'm not convinced that these "unsavory types" actually amounted to all that much. Anything looks big when you hold a magnifying glass up to it, and SA is very, very good at that. (And given that site's status as "a wretched hive of scum and villainy"*, their 'intervention' is highly suspicious in and of itself.) In the long run, I think TVT's forums have been a greater threat to the site than any content that was ever on the wiki. And we're not going to have forums, which while not a decision I entirely agree with does head that problem off at the pass.

*And I say this as someone who shelled out money for an account there.

* Troper Tales/Fetish Fuel pages are, frankly, more trouble than they are worth. Okay, some of the more inoffensive Tropers Tales weren't bad, but some were just questionable, and the Fetish Fuel.....yeesh, that was a cesspit. I could really live without them if I had to. Besides, I have some of them archived on the TMW, and after reading some of them, I am currently contemplating their removal.

Personally, I thought both could be a lot of fun. But, again, that job has already been taken up elsewhere. While neither of the TT wikis seem to be particularly thriving, that doesn't seem like enough reason for us to pick it up too.

I have continued to remove any content that was illegally imported from after June 2012 since I respect copyright laws (something my predecessors on the Tropes Mirror Wiki apparently did not).

That's something to be a bit cautious with, since someone the person who added the material to TVT originally can add it to other wikis without violating the license. (Though FE changing the site's license in midstream is screwy enough that I don't have much respect for it.)

* From what I gather, many people are hesitant of joining Wikia because they feel Wikia would constrain their creativity and impose censorship:

It's really more because they're a bunch of jerks. Check out http://complaintwiki.org/wiki/Main_Page for information.

I agree with the No Lewdness/No Prudishness policy -- though I hate the name.

Personally, something about the way they they go at it has always bugged me, but I've never been able to put my finger on why. (And it'd probably be a bad idea to use the phrase directly anyway.)

Though I do like the word "lewdness". "Lascivious" is pretty good too, even if I've never been quite sure how to pronounce it.

-Morgan. For that matter, I'm a bit fuzzy on what it means...

[Another Troper]

So the new wiki software won't come? And you're going to use mediawiki now? I guess that's not too bad - but I'd find it cool if the new site had some "crunchy bits", if you get what I mean.

[GethN7]

Just to give you guys an update, we have all the text data we need converted to MediaWiki format, in the process of getting Orain to gin up the site and figuring out the best way to import the image content.

As the QA tester for this, I can say the following.

* First, MediaWiki and PmWiki are somewhat similar in page layout despite some parser differences, and MediaWiki was chosen after the customized wiki engine fell through due to ease of porting the content as loyally as possible. I cannot guarantee it is perfect, since some PmWiki syntax does not perfectly translate in MediaWiki (especially a lot of Fast Eddie's custom alterations to the stock PmWiki code), but between vorticity hammering out as many flaws in the conversion parser as possible and me hunting them down, the text should be more or less intact with the appropriate markup. Some quote markup is a bit flawed and will need some fixing and we're still working on importing the images, and we'll have to use some custom/imported templates to fill in some blanks, but the good news is that I have most of that already covered.

* After extensive testing on a localhost wiki, I can replicate most if not all features of TV Tropes most of you expect, including:
** Custom namespace skins for Darth/Sugar Wikis (and other namespaces as appropriate)
** Colored and strikeout text (removed in TV Tropes)
** Forums (if need be)
** Page type selection (lays out the basic framework of a page so all you have to do is fill in the blanks)
** The accordian styled folderization scheme used on TV Tropes (slightly modified, but works the same way)
** Site notices (which can be dismissed)
** A variety of user options, including seeing "alternative titles" for pages, auto adding categories, features for inserting custom markup from drop down/customized menus, and a lot more.
** Ability to add hottips/labelnotes (or "references, via the Cite extension)

Note: we have fully functional spoiler code, but no ability to toggle its visibility at present.

There are other features that can be added that I have tested, but I'd prefer to wait until we have something to talk about before discussing those.

More as we get an actual wiki set up, but I just wanted to add a closing note:

I plan to mostly be the tech guy for the wiki. Unlike Fast Eddie, I prefer to make decisions by consensus, and I will not be the only admin. We haven't hammered out how administration issues will be handled, but even though I will be the wiki founder, I refuse to be a wiki dictator, and the community WILL have a voice in how the wiki is run and managed. In fact, I confessed to vorticity I did not want to be the only one making administrative decisions out of fear of becoming drunk with power (I'm sure no one wants me to become Fast Eddie Mk. 2), so I repeat, the troping community on ATT will have more say than they would on TV Tropes, though we'll hammer out the specifics once we have a site up.

Also, I'm not some MediaWiki genius. Converting this stuff to MW format took trial and error, and I had to ask a lot of people for help, Brent "vorticity" Laabs especially. Anyone who has MediaWiki coding (CSS/JS code especially) or wiki admin experience is encouraged to offer their advice and services, and anyone who just wants to say hello or ask a question is more than welcome, as I have an open door policy and want ATT to be laid back and relaxed and a place to have fun like the TVT of old.

Will give more updates when the wiki is finally up, but I wanted to give everyone a status report.

[Labster]

So the new wiki software won't come? And you're going to use mediawiki
now? I guess that's not too bad - but I'd find it cool if the new site
had some "crunchy bits", if you get what I mean.

Sorry, it's all fluffy bits.  Though I gotta say, compared to the kludge TVT is running, it's a real step up.  I mean, it won't even look ugly on the main page.
Okay, the major feature that Geth-chan forgot to mention above:* Actual working subpages that don't rely on a strange syntax (next time I see Patrick I really need to harass him about that design decision).  So "Recap.DoctorWhoS31E12ThePandoricaOpens" becomes "Doctor Who (TV)/Recap/S31 E12 The Pandorica Opens" -- at least from the autogenerated page names.I only mention this because of the hours and hours of effort it took to get namespace conversion to work.
I'm not a MediaWiki expert either, I'm afraid.  My expertise is mainly in Perl, not PHP, and there's only so much HTML/CSS/JS/SQL stuff that will carry over.  So if there are any people with intermediate or above level experience in PHP, we might want to hear from you.
The same applies for graphic design.  If anyone has an idea for a new logo for All The Tropes, I'd love to hear it.  (I had a great idea for Wikia's Tropes Mirror Wiki: a lampshade with a goatee -- but sadly that won't work for us.)  We're looking for something playful and inviting; it can make reference to types of media (TV, movies, games, literature) or to one of the Tropes Of Legend.  I'd like to avoid the lampshade for obvious reasons.  If you have a good idea, I might be willing to pay to get it drawn.
So far as administrative structure:* GethN7 will take the lead for the technical aspects of the wiki -- design, features, bugs, mass regex changes, dealing with our hosting provider, etc.* Me (Vorticity) will take the lead on the community side -- conflict resolution, recruiting moderators, publicity, policy, DMCA requests.This is fairly loose, and liable to change in the future.  If anyone wants to take a chunk of those responsibilities from us, let me know.
Beyond the two of us, I'd like to see a real board of directors deal with some of the high level issues -- major redesign, hosting provider change, major changes in policy, or appealing something that we did as administrative staff.  I function much better in a democratic structure, and for some reason GethN7 is all afraid he's going to go mad with power and banhammer the villagers or something.  Having a republican structure, or at least an oligarchical one, should help keep the community happy.
That's it for now.  The site parse is complete, and test imports work and actually look good.   Things are finally moving fast.
-- ∇×V

[GethN7]

First, I'd like to thank Vorticity-kun for mentioning what I forgot.

Second, we are up!

http://allthetropes.orain.org/wiki/Main_Page

There is no content yet. We haven't gotten that imported to Orain's servers. I'm still waiting on the Orain tech guys to install the extensions and features I need, and in the meantime, I'm just adding needed style sheets and JS code and other technical stuff.

If anyone wants to pop on by and say hello, feel free, but it isn't too exciting yet.

[GethN7]

Until we get an answer back from the mods at Orain on some import questions, I decided to dig around my test wiki for some sample pictures of what ATT pages will look like (without any frills, Vector skin only). These are all pictures from the QA phase, some of this should be greatly improved in the live site versions, but the below should give you a rough idea what to expect content on the live site will look like.



Here's my photo album link (need 2 be logged to Yuku to see it) if you want to look at the pics full sized there.

http://GethN7.drunkardswalkforums.yuku. ... aid/766001

These are three different pages from TV Tropes, circa June 2012, all CC BY SA 3.0 licensed, converted as faithfully from PmWiki To MediaWiki format. In fact, while the Tropes Mirror Wiki already has a converter program, these pages were all converted by vorticity's mad coding skillz using what must be black magic, because the TMW converter converts pages a lot worse than what you see above, though you could still use it as a cheap and dirty porting engine if you had to.

Anyway, just though I'd give you guys a sneak preview what to expect when we have all the content up.

[robkelk]

Might I suggest you populate those three links at the bottom of the page - "Privacy Policy", "About All The Tropes", and "Disclaimers" - before you post any content. Make sure you have your legalese in place before you post something that'll need that legalese.

(I know we didn't populate those pages early on the FenWiki, but nobody saw the FenWiki as competition to an existing wiki.)
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."

- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012

[Bob Schroeck]

Fortunately, Brent already has at least draft pages for all three handy in order to do so. But maybe we ought to open some of that up to review by the (future) community first. Brent, what do you think of making that stuff -- and maybe the admin rules (aka "The Other Terms of Service") -- available?
-- Bob
---------
Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.

[nylor]

I think it is publically visible - or it was - on the preview/sample Wiki. Is that still u p?

I still stand ready to help this effort however I can.

[GethN7]

Bob SchroeckFortunately, Brent already has at least draft pages for all three handy in order to do so. But maybe we ought to open some of that up to review by the (future) community first. Brent, what do you think of making that stuff -- and maybe the admin rules (aka "The Other Terms of Service") -- available?

I can't speak for Brent, but I'm in favor of doing that. The wiki is currently open for business, but Orain does not yet have our import content, so we have some time to make sure the legalese and policy pages are implemented first. I've already implemented the basic templates and some basic site code for when we do have actual content, but I too would feel better having the legal stuff done first, and will be requesting that our sign up page have links to the relevant pages so they can be agreed to before anyone signs up to contribute.

[Bob Schroeck]

I think it is publically visible - or it was - on the preview/sample Wiki. Is that still u p?

It is, but I couldn't remember whether its existence was supposed to be public knowledge or not.  Either way, it is now.    If someone doesn't beat me to it, I'll post the link(s) when I get home and can get the info from my bookmarks.
-- Bob
---------
Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.

[Labster]

Right.  That's at tropes.wikispot.org.
I don't think anyone is really watching this thread from the opposition, and it doesn't much matter if they do at this point.
Every page is tagged with the original license and source URL in the edit history, so we're mostly covered on the legal aspects.  The policies aren't all written, but we have drafts most of them.  If you want to help start a new front page, that would be awesome as well.
-- ∇×V

[Morganite]

If anyone has an idea for a new logo for All The Tropes, I'd love to hear it.

I'm imagining a pile of books, movies, and 8-track tapes with various tropey objects sticking out. (A huge sword, a magical girl wand, ???)

-Morgan.

[Another Troper]

Wow... all those months nothing happened, but now things are going so fast. And the Headscratchers for tropes are back, which is cool. I never understood why Fast Eddie wanted them deleted.

[Labster]

Oh, an idea I had on the "No Lewdness, No Prudishness" name: how about "Safe for Work, Safe for Thought". Or maybe "Safe for Work, Open to Discussion". I'm still thumbing through a thesaurus for the last word.

The idea I'm trying to convey in the second clause is academic freedom, which is a really obvious thing for those of us who went to grad school, but I doubt most people understand what it is. Actually, I doubt most undergrads understand what academic freedom is.
-- ∇×V

[Dragonflight]

I'm imagining a pile of books, movies, and 8-track tapes with various
tropey objects sticking out. (A huge sword, a magical girl wand, ???)

Heh. On that note, idea: The large central object should be a magical girl wand with a sword blade strapped to it with tape which has been pulled from a pile of VHS tapes, canted on a sideways angle so that the pendant hanging off the back is clearly visible. Not sure exactly what the pendant should be yet, but possibly something vaguely fetish-y, so that it hits a few more buttons. A chibi Nuku Nuku, maybe. Or something like that. Possibly a silhouette figure of a posing Rei Ayanami. That would probably hit even more buttons...
---
Those who fear the darkness have never seen what the light can do.

[Labster]

... supported by Ayanami Rei, sinister, and a rampant Asuka Langley, dexter.

I like heraldry

Also Front Page draft: http://tropes.wikispot.org/New_Front_Page
-- ∇×V

[Bob Schroeck]

It's ironic that I'm the one to say this, but the suggestion so far has far too many anime elements.

How about this?

A stack of books, with smaller stacks of VHS and casette tapes in front of it. A film reel leans against it on one side, a DVD/CD (probably indistinguishable at the size we'll be using) leaning against the other. An old time radio (wooden "cathedral" case) sits on top of the book stack.
-- Bob
---------
Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.

[robkelk]

It's ironic that I'm the one to say this, but the suggestion so far has far too many anime elements.

And none of the suggested females have the Most Common Superpower, either.

How about this?

A stack of books, with smaller stacks of VHS and casette tapes in front of it. A film reel leans against it on one side, a DVD/CD (probably indistinguishable at the size we'll be using) leaning against the other. An old time radio (wooden "cathedral" case) sits on top of the book stack.

I might be able to do something there... eventually. Everyone, don't wait for me if you want to give it a try.
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."

- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012

[Bob Schroeck]

Hm. A bit of refinement: add a scroll/papyrus and a clay cuneiform tablet peeking out from behind either side of the stack as described above.
-- Bob
---------
Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.

[GethN7]

I'm not a good artist, so I welcome any logo you guys come up with. Just make sure it can fit into a 135 x 135 px area at least, and 150 x 150 px area at most.

Also, I recommend it be made a PNG file with a transparent background. The stylesheets we're gonna use for the Darth/Sugar Wiki require custom CSS that will look really ugly with a non transparent background logo file. This also ensures, regardless of skin, the CSS and logo go together seamlessly. I also recommend it be cleaned of background artifacts and have bright, rich colors, so it will stand out against some of the darker style sheets and won't look horrible on really large monitors.

[Morganite]

And the Headscratchers for tropes are back, which is cool. I never understood why Fast Eddie wanted them deleted.

I think it might have come from the "we must be more encyclopedic" drive in part, but I'm not sure now. There was also this idea I ran into somewhere that a trope as a general thing shouldn't cause headscratching, which hahahaha, no.

Oh, an idea I had on the "No Lewdness, No Prudishness" name: how about "Safe for Work, Safe for Thought". Or maybe "Safe for Work, Open to Discussion". I'm still thumbing through a thesaurus for the last word.

The idea I'm trying to convey in the second clause is academic freedom, which is a really obvious thing for those of us who went to grad school, but I doubt most people understand what it is. Actually, I doubt most undergrads understand what academic freedom is.

As an idea, it kind of sounds right... but I can see a couple issues.

One, it might give people an expectation that pages will be/must be work-safe. Which could be a tall order for more things than just non-work-safe works.

Other, I'm pretty sure a lot of people will interpret "Safe for Thought" as "will not lead to calls for brain bleach". (Or maybe "will not trigger".) Which has nothing to do with what you're trying to express.

It's ironic that I'm the one to say this, but the suggestion so far has far too many anime elements.

Well, anime does tend to get it's hooks in everything - though personally, I see giant swords as a video game thing.

DRAG0NFLIGHT, I think that's just too much stuff for one small image. Having a person in it doesn't seem like a good idea to me, and having recognizable characters is a really bad idea.

On the other hand, I think Bobs is over-simple. It doesn't really suggest "tropes" very much. I suggested the things I did because they seem like rather... trope-ey?... things whose general shape seems amenable to sticking out of a pile of stuff.

On 'Administrivia' - yeah, having some of that worked out before putting up the content sounds like a really good idea. (The content guidelines page also seems important, given how a content issue was a big part of why we're doing this.) Also, what are we doing with those pages from TV Tropes? (Are they even part of our data set?) In theory, some would be relevant if only for historical purposes, since they inform our starting position. But it shouldn't look like those are automatically *our* policies.

-Morgan.