CNN Reporter arrested by state police while on air.

[SilverFang01]

Trevor Noah advocates looting and violent protests on the Daily Show channel, because "the social contract is already broken."


What the fuck, Trevor?

The benefit of not-looting and not-violent protests is not breaking that social contract further, eroding sympathy and support for change by requiring an immediate, heavy handed response to suppress the criminal behavior and protect lives and livelihood. Advocating more violence is adding to the problem, not solving it. I don't care if you're black, white, red, yellow, or blue, harmful, criminal acts are criminal acts that do harm. No one should get away with murder, no one should get away with arson, no one should get away with assault and battery or breaking and entry or grand theft. Relevant comments begin around the eleven minute mark.

Well, the peaceful way was tried already. Remember Kapernick for example? Society already had a chance to do something, but most people just turn the other way or start crying about disrespect or whatever. Only now, when there is no other choice but to express that anger that has been bubbling under the surface the last few years that people that would prefer to keep ignoring it have started to pay attention.

Is it regrettable that it has had to reach this point? Yes. Maybe next time we won't wait so long to make sure that justice is done.

*sigh*

[Labster]

Unfortunately in game theory, if one side always chooses cooperate, they will lose.  In racism, if minorities continue to choose to cooperate while police continue to defect by murdering, maiming, and acting as terrorists in the community, then ethnic minorities will never improve their situation.  It's just math.  If you want to blame someone, blame Moloch.  There's a specific meaning to Moloch in the rationalist community, but it's sufficient to think of him as the ancient god of why we can't have nice things.  He exists, and we can't.

There's empirical evidence to back this up too.  I read a paper back in college that social protest movements are more successful if they are violent.  IIRC, the success rate was improved by 5-10%.  Part of the effect, one could argue, is that the protest is more deeply felt among more people if some of the participants are willing to be violent.  But of course, violence makes the political authorities take notice, because it threatens their control and wealth.  If they're not threatened in some way, they are less likely to take action.

(Aside: what you never ever want to do in a social movement is to threaten mass violence and then not carry through on your threat.  That just makes everyone hate you.  Even with the smallish sample size of movements the effect was huge.  Case in point, the German American Bund.)

[classicdrogn]

Goddammit, I went and deluded myself into thinking people as a whole are basically good and reasonable again. Fucking reality, can't live with it but won't leave you alone, it's like a psycho ex.

[hazard]

People generally are basically good and reasonable.

Unfortunately, the behaviours that are common to the good and reasonable are generally not how you get power. Which means you can get situations like this, where the powerful are at best jerks who are unaccountable to the general public.

When the powerful are accountable and held to account, the behaviours of the powerful change.

[SilverFang01]

Or as Gil on Girl Genius said

(beating up Vole) Always I try to be reasonable. To be fair. I try to talk to people. And no one ever takes it as anything other than weakness. You listen to me try to be civilized and you think, "Oh, he's nothing. Him we can ignore. Him we can push around. We can do whatever we want--HE won't stop us!" Because nobody takes me seriously unless I shout and threaten like a cut-rate stage villian. Well, you know what? I can do crazy. I really can. And it looks like I'm going to have to. Agatha is in danger. This whole town is in danger. If I'm going to be able to help her at all, I'll have to give up all this "being reasonable" garbage and show you idiots what kind of madboy you're really dealing with.

[Matrix Dragon]

So, the New South Wales Courts ruled that tomorrows protests, both in support of the American situation, and local indigenous deaths in custody, are in violation of the current social distancing restrictions and can't go ahead. I think tomorrow will be very interesting, both in terms of turnout, and in regards to the police response compared to the 5G Bill Gates Mind Control protests a few weeks back. Several of our federal ministers are trying to downplay it as self-indulgent 'false solidarity' with USA protests, which really isn't helping.

[classicdrogn]

Guys, I get it, but you're not helping. Just reminding me why I don't want to live in this world, and that every time I persuade myself it's not so bad something comes along to prove that's because it's worse. (sigh) It's probably time for me to stop reading this subforum, listening to the news, etc. for a while again.

[robkelk]

classicdrogn, maybe this might help.

[Matrix Dragon]

THIS WON'T.

57 officers in Buffalo, New York, have quit the emergency response team in a show of solidarity with two officers who have been suspended pending an investigation into their fracturing an elderly protesters skull and then leaving his unconscious, bleeding body on the ground.

In a statement on radio, Buffalo Police Benevolent Association president John Evans said "Fifty-seven resigned in disgust because of the treatment of two of their members, who were simply executing orders."

Simply. Executing. Orders.

[Norgarth]

On a similar topic:

Beau of the Fifth Column: Let's talk about how we've seen enough (specifically the segment starting around the 1:30 mark)

[Black Aeronaut]

..... We are just one spark away from this turning into something that will make Tienanmen Square look like a fucking teddy bear picnic. It will start when a Citizen Has Had Enough and will literally fight back instead of allowing themselves to be shot at or pummeled.

[hazard]

'Just following orders'?

That wasn't a valid excuse 75 years ago.


Mind you, it is good that the other members resigned in protest and highlighted the people under investigation were following instructions from above. It doesn't absolve the people under investigation from the blame, but it does mean that the investigation should be looking up the chain of command and see where the rot started and purge it.

Not that it will be purged, because I've a feeling we know exactly where the orders came from.

[Matrix Dragon]

Mind you, it is good that the other members resigned in protest and highlighted the people under investigation were following instructions from above. It doesn't absolve the people under investigation from the blame, but it does mean that the investigation should be looking up the chain of command and see where the rot started and purge it.

No, they didn't resign over what happened. They resigned from the emergency response team (Not the actual police force) over the fact the officers in question have actually been suspended. They're offended at their people being called out for brutality that was caught on video.

[hazard]

Matrix, they resigned saying 'those guys were just following orders'.

If it was just them being suspended for excessive force and the other officers resigning over that? You'd be completely right.

But them pointing at the higher ups and saying those higher ups instructed them to do something, and/or about the amount of force they could use? That puts the higher ups in the hot water as well.

Nothing will come from it given the current administration, but getting the people enabling and/or encouraging criminal behaviour is just as important as the people actually doing the deeds.

[robkelk]

THIS WON'T.

57 officers in Buffalo, New York, have quit the emergency response team in a show of solidarity with two officers who have been suspended pending an investigation into their fracturing an elderly protesters skull and then leaving his unconscious, bleeding body on the ground.

In a statement on radio, Buffalo Police Benevolent Association president John Evans said "Fifty-seven resigned in disgust because of the treatment of two of their members, who were simply executing orders."

Simply. Executing. Orders.

People are known by the friends that they keep.

They're resigning in solidarity with people who do such things? Good riddance to them.

[Black Aeronaut]

I've been of the opinion lately that there needs to be a Federal agency whose sole task is investigating police forces for abuses of any sort. Full investigative powers, the ability to raise charges, the whole nine yards.

(I'd also like to make it a Federal Law that police vehicles shall always have two officers, and that they be set up so that the one riding shot gun has to deal with all the computers and radios and shit, so the other one can actually focus on driving the damn car.)

[hazard]

You mean like an Inspector General's office Black Aeronaut?


Frankly, the USA could do with a restriction on prosecutorial discretion. When enough evidence has been gathered to charge any member of the government but especially elected officials you shouldn't leave the decision of whether or not to charge them to people who will do the politically prudent thing.

The law should compel the prosecution of those charges against the suspect, regardless of the suspect's position.

[robkelk]

I've been of the opinion lately that there needs to be a Federal agency whose sole task is investigating police forces for abuses of any sort.  Full investigative powers, the ability to raise charges, the whole nine yards.
...

You mean like the DOJ's "COPS" used to be?

Justice Department ends program scrutinizing local police forces - Devlin Barrett, The Washington Post, September 15, 2017

An arm of the Justice Department said Friday it would roll back Obama-era efforts to investigate local police departments and issue public reports about their failings — another way in which the Trump administration is trying to adopt a tough pro-police stance.

[Star Ranger4]

Goddammit, I went and deluded myself into thinking people as a whole are basically good and reasonable again. Fucking reality, can't live with it but won't leave you alone, it's like a psycho ex.

DAMMIT CD!!!!  STOP MAKING ME GUILTY OF ALCOHOL ABUSE!!!


oy, my aching sinuses!!!

Guys, I get it, but you're not helping. Just reminding me why I don't want to live in this world, and that every time I persuade myself it's not so bad something comes along to prove that's because it's worse. (sigh) It's probably time for me to stop reading this subforum, listening to the news, etc. for a while again.

NOT HELPING ME NOT FEEL THE SAME WAY.

[robkelk]

So, how many elected heads of governments have taken part in these protests and taken a knee, Colin Kaepernick style, to show that they recognize there's a problem here?

At least one.

Whether acknowledgement that there's an problem will translate into action to correct the problem remains to be seen.

[robkelk]

This speaks for itself -- especially the handwritten addition by the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff.



(Source)

[Labster]

A few significant things in the news on a sleepy Sunday:

A supermajority of the Minneapolis City Council announced a plan to disband the city police department
James Bennet forced to resign from New York Times editorial board after publishing an op-ed by a sitting U.S. Senator
Statue of Edward Colston, philanthropist, slave trader, is torn down in Bristol and tossed into the harbor

[robkelk]

Set aside an hour to listen to this show from May 2019. (Technically not a podcast; it was originally broadcast on radio.)

America's Other Civil War: How white nationalism led to 'civic coups d'état'

[robkelk]

"Disband the police force"? Camden, NJ, did it in 2012 - and ended up at the end of the day with a larger force that had a different focus.

The Camden police did not attack the Black Lives Matter march on May 30. On the contrary, the police chief lead it.

So, yeah - if this example can be followed elsewhere, then go ahead and disband the current police forces and replace them with something that the local municipalities actually need.

[SilverFang01]

Fox proves that they are the real fake news.

Fox News Manipulates Pictures Of Seattle Protests Then Lies About It