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Wiki update discussion thread
 
#26
OK, I've updated the weapons page. The next thing on my list (due to metioning them on the weapons page) is this:


=== Combat Capable Ship Types ===

Fen in general don't like pointing out their armed vessels, but that hasn't stopped the [[Military Fen|mil-fen] from drawing up a simple taxonomy of military craft in Fenspace.

* '''U.C.A.V.''' - Sometimes called '''Drones''', these are armed, (semi-)autonomous craft not capable of having a human-sized sapient be carried inside it.
* '''Fighter''' - The most populous military craft in Fenspace, carries one to two people.A.I. piloted fighters may not have people aboard, but they still have cockpits.
* '''Cutter''' - A small, armed craft that has a crew (three to five people) and space for them to move about comfortably. Normally used as patrol craft and scouts, and part of a Flotilla.
* '''Frigate''' - A fast armed vessel carrying one to two assault squads and armed with 4 or more anti-ship level weapons. Normally part of a Flotilla.
* '''Destroyer''' - An independent command roughly twice the size of a Frigate, mounting at least one Rail Cannon or other anti-vessel level weapon. Also generally has a small craft for transportation.
* '''Cruiser''' - Much like a Destroyer, but carrying up to 4 fighter or assault craft and/or a C3Command, Control, and Communications section. Normally has two anti-vessel weapons.
* '''Battlecruiser''' - A vessel mounting more than 4 anti-vessel level weapons and/or a Particle Beam weapon, not belonging to a recognised faction.And are closely watched by [[Great Justice] and the [[Space Patrol].
* '''Battleship''' - The same as a Battlecruiser, but belonging to a recognised faction.
* '''Carrier''' - A large vessel carrying more than four fighter or assault craft. Normally mounts a squadron of fighters and assault craft for its platoon of 'Marines'. Mostly has point defence and anti-fighter weaponry.Doctrine will have these escorted by at least a Flotilla of Frigates, if not Destroyers or Cruisers.
* '''Supercarrier''' - A currently theoretical type of ship, a Supercarrier would carry at least an air wing of 5 squadrons, a company of troops and attendant craft, and mount anti-vessel weaponry.
* '''Battlecarrier''' - Another theoretical ship type, this concept is a cross between a Supercarrier and a Battleship.

There are subtypes of all the above, usually prefixed with one or more of the following:

* '''Assault''' - The Assault prefix is given to those craft optimised for getting boots on the ground. In general, it's an Assault ship's job to capture ships and facilities, and the Assault craft's job to support this.
* '''Strike''' - A Strike craft is optimised for attack operations, if they don't blow it up they soften it up for assault craft.
* '''Stealth''' - A Stealth craft hides what it is, allowing them to get close to their target. They also tend to be used on surveillance and intelligence missions.
* '''Cloaked''' - The submarines of Space, a Cloaked craft is (through design and technology) otherwise invisible to the vast majority of other vessels.


I was thinking of putting it at the end of the of the Great Justice page. Arguments for, against, or involving the text on this are welcome.

Given all the previous argument, the next thing to ponder is power.
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#27
I guess the Adler class would make nice Cutter when fitted with a weapons module.
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#28
It might be worth having examples of each added to the article. Although the differences between them can get muddied depending on the era. At one stage, the SS Ciara was the most powerful armed vessel in Fenspace, now it isn't.

What a ship is depends as much on how the crew/faction see the ship, as anything else.
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#29
The difference between "UCAV" and "Fighter" just seem to be "no cockpit" or "cockpit"... why not call them manned/unmanned fighters?

The difference between Battlecruiser and Battleship (based on who owns the ship!) doesn't make any sense.

Not sure about putting in the number of "marines" and "assault crafts" in the definition of carrier/supercarrier. What is a large carrier without any Marines called?
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#30
HRogge Wrote:The difference between "UCAV" and "Fighter" just seem to be "no cockpit" or "cockpit"... why not call them manned/unmanned fighters?
I primarily went with U.C.A.V. rather than drone because 'Drone' could mean a lot of things in Fenspace. I seperated Fighter out based on cockpit as a simple way of differentiating sizes. If it's big enough to hold a cockpit (and associated equipment like life-support) then it's most likely a fighter.

HRogge Wrote:The difference between Battlecruiser and Battleship (based on who owns the ship!) doesn't make any sense.
Mostly it was a quick and easy way of saying "UNKNOWN ENEMY", or "BOSKONIAN", but it was also a way of differentiating the resources available. While in the grand scheme of things they are both the same a Battleship is normally put together far better than a Battlecruiser.

HRogge Wrote:Not sure about putting in the number of "marines" and "assault crafts" in the definition of carrier/supercarrier. What is a large carrier without any Marines called?
A mobile dock most likely. The provision of marines and assault craft allows the capture of the target. As I see it, the Fen will want to do this in most cases. 'Cause we're the Good Guys/Galls (or at least, see ourselves that way).
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#31
Cobalt Greywalker Wrote:=== Combat Capable Ship Types ===
I remember, when I signed up for Fenspace, needing to fight tooth and nail to be allowed to have one weapon on my character's spacecraft.

Now we're talking about a proposed taxonomy of armed spacecraft.

What happened?
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."

- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012
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#32
I find it sort of interesting how things changed even within Fenspace society. How the perception of being armed actually changed from OMG a gun, through OMG a Navy ship, through OMG they're using LIVE AMMO and then onwards too 'You don't carry a gun?'.

It's also a fact that the cooler and more iconic space vehicles in fiction are the big things that make other things go boom. Though I suppose it's something I'm guilty of the most, since I have probably the most dedicated 'warrior' characters out there. Everyone else sort of started as something else and does combat as a sideline, while Jet/The Panzer Kunst are the inverse.
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#33
Cobalt Greywalker Wrote:I primarily went with U.C.A.V. rather than drone because 'Drone' could mean a lot of things in Fenspace. I seperated Fighter out based on cockpit as a simple way of differentiating sizes. If it's big enough to hold a cockpit (and associated equipment like life-support) then it's most likely a fighter.

Mostly it was a quick and easy way of saying "UNKNOWN ENEMY", or "BOSKONIAN", but it was also a way of differentiating the resources available. While in the grand scheme of things they are both the same a Battleship is normally put together far better than a Battlecruiser.
In both cases you are mixing things into the "type" of the ship that are (in my opinion) not really belong together.

If we say "UCAVs" (1-3 meters long?) are smaller than "Fighters" (3+ meters long?), it would be okay. But making the cockpit mandatory doesn't fit the taxonomy.

Same with Battlecruisers/Battleships. These are ship TYPES, not owners of ships. Using the terms in your way is misleading and strange. The same ship would be sometimes called a Battleship, sometimes a Battlecruiser, just because its owned by a different group?

Quote:A mobile dock most likely. The provision of marines and assault craft allows the capture of the target. As I see it, the Fen will want to do this in most cases. 'Cause we're the Good Guys/Galls (or at least, see ourselves that way).

So a waved Nimitz-Class would be no "carrier" (because it only deals with the carrier part, not with the assault part) ?

robkelk Wrote:I remember, when I signed up for Fenspace, needing to fight tooth and nail to be allowed to have one weapon on my character's spacecraft.

Now we're talking about a proposed taxonomy of armed spacecraft.

What happened?

People in this forum stopped responding to drafts from other people. When I posted the Normandy I had expected at least some concerns about its main gun... and hoped for some "in universe" controversy or discussion. But nobody cared.

Still, I think the taxonomy of armed spacecrafts overshoots what we might need for Fenspace.
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#34
Discussion is why I posted these things. If people have better ideas go ahead and re-write it, or if the collective says no it'll get scrapped and I'll remove the references in the weapons page.

RE: U.C.A.V. vs Fighter - In my opinion, if it can be manned (hence cockpit) it's a fighter. Otherwise it's a U.C.A.V. There already exists a version of the Predator drone (bigger than your proposed size limit IIRC) armed with a laser designator and Hellfire missiles, and has nowhere for a person to ride.

RE: Battlecruiser - How about I replace it with Marauder? As a leftover from the Boskon War where Boskonian forces tried to gludge together a Battleship analogue? So something between Cruiser and Battleship, not of the quality of either but packing closer to Battleship levels of weaponry? That is of course the Collective (or Mod) doesn't nix the whole thing here.

RE: Marines - This is another leftover from the Boskonian War. For the most part the Fen were trying to capture the enemy (for various reasons). As such, having a force to do so without draining the crew seems logical. They could also double as Search&Rescue, security, and extra bodies in damage control. Hell, they might be pilots not on rotation for what ever reason.

Point is, I at least see that having a 'ground' force directly available for the space navy is preferable to not having one. The Fen have to cover a lot of bases with their craft.

If you want to have a go reworking this, please do so. Again, that is if the Collective don't say nay and this bit get consigned to the bin.
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#35
Cobalt Greywalker Wrote:RE: U.C.A.V. vs Fighter - In my opinion, if it can be manned (hence cockpit) it's a fighter. Otherwise it's a U.C.A.V. There already exists a version of the Predator drone (bigger than your proposed size limit IIRC) armed with a laser designator and Hellfire missiles, and has nowhere for a person to ride.
That might make sense..

so "UCAV" (or sometimes just "Drones") and "Fighter" are two forms of a similar or the same concept, just that the fighter has always a cockpit and the UCAV never has one. Both would be in a similar size range, just that the addition of 1/2-person cockpits often makes the fighter a bit larger than the comparable equipped UCAV.

(some AIs might still protest and call their hulls 'AI fighters' or something like this Wink )

Quote:RE: Battlecruiser - How about I replace it with Marauder? As a leftover from the Boskon War where Boskonian forces tried to gludge together a Battleship analogue? So something between Cruiser and Battleship, not of the quality of either but packing closer to Battleship levels of weaponry? That is of course the Collective (or Mod) doesn't nix the whole thing here.
Why do you need a different type just because its Boskonian?

If we ever need something between a Battleship and a Cruiser, call it Battlecruiser... if the Trekkies built it, its a Trekkie Battlecruiser... if the Boskons did it, its a Boskone Battlecruiser... I don't think anyone got to this size until the Boskonian war was over (it they did, maybe "Marauder" could be a nickname for the Battlecruisers the Boskonians built).

Quote:RE: Marines - This is another leftover from the Boskonian War. For the most part the Fen were trying to capture the enemy (for various reasons). As such, having a force to do so without draining the crew seems logical. They could also double as Search&Rescue, security, and extra bodies in damage control. Hell, they might be pilots not on rotation for what ever reason.
Point is, I at least see that having a 'ground' force directly available for the space navy is preferable to not having one. The Fen have to cover a lot of bases with their craft.
I personally would think about this as an addition to the "carrier" concept.

Most large enough ships carry crafts/fighters/drones in some numbers in Fenspace I think, just because parking with a large ship is a headache. Wink

E.g. the Normandy for example would be a "Stealth Destroyer" in your taxonomy, despite carrying 5 crafts (4 drones and a shuttle).
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#36
HRogge Wrote:People in this forum stopped responding to drafts from other people. When I posted the Normandy I had expected at least some concerns about its main gun... and hoped for some "in universe" controversy or discussion. But nobody cared.

Still, I think the taxonomy of armed spacecrafts overshoots what we might need for Fenspace.

Perhaps we should have the discussion, then.

In the early days of Fenspace, almost nobody went armed, and the exceptions were not well-respected.

Then came the Boskone War. "Everybody" started mounting weapons on their spacecraft for protection. The ones who had them earlier were thought of in a better light than they were before the war.

Then the war ended. The ship-mounted weapons... (how do we complete this sentence?)
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."

- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012
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#37
robkelk Wrote:Perhaps we should have the discussion, then.
Yes, we should...

Quote:In the early days of Fenspace, almost nobody went armed, and the exceptions were not well-respected.

Then came the Boskone War. "Everybody" started mounting weapons on their spacecraft for protection. The ones who had them earlier were thought of in a better light than they were before the war.
*nod*

Quote:Then the war ended. The ship-mounted weapons... (how do we complete this sentence?)
Its a tradeof... I think a lot of Fen discovered that even with Space Patrol, help can be hours away in the belt or on the Jupiter trojans... on the other side many Fen might go back to smaller self defense weapons.

Catgirl Industries was always a little bit paranoid about the remainders of the Boskones, being raided while they worked on the first Normandy class did not helped either. Wink
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#38
Quote:Then the war ended. The ship-mounted weapons... (how do we complete this sentence?)


...mostly stayed, out of a combination of inertia and a general suspicion that not all the Boskonians got rounded up.

The Boskonian War was Fenspace's loss of innocence.  That didn't mean it couldn't still be optimistic and look for adventure, but now that attitude was tempered with the knowledge that sometimes the adventure came looking for you, and it wasn't always fun.  


-- Bob
---------
Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.
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#39
One should note that, despite having had personal consequences from the Boskone War, Jeph Antilles has resisted any recommendation that the Jupiter Mining Corp set up their own armed escort force. The idea of doing so makes him incredibly uneasy... he can accept the need to have an armed force, but balances that with the whole idea that "a shipping company shouldn't need it."

That, and the crews would just be outclassed anyway, at least in terms of experience.

However, that doesn't mean that Blue Midget captains are expected to just give up and allow boarders, it's just to take the battle where they know the battlefield will at least be even. On at least one occasion, a would-be Reaver raiding party has boarded a Blue Midget... and left it in body bags. No Blue Midget crew wants to become like the crew of #17.
--

"You know how parents tell you everything's going to fine, but you know they're lying to make you feel better? Everything's going to be fine." - The Doctor
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#40
It depends...

Some people will junk their guns and disarm as soon as they can. Weapons are an expensive business, after all. There're bound to be places which, for whatever reason, don't allow armed craft to dock (Or armed guests).

At the same time, there are some people who would struggle to disarm themselves, or find something that they have the skills for as 2015 rumbles on. This is the position Jet finds herself in..... She can't really make a living except through troubleshooter work, or as a combat instructor.

Most people will probably be a bit less conspicuous about being armed then they were during the war, with guns and missile batteries being faired in and hidden rather than being left on display for all to see. The big offensive types of weapons are no longer needed except for the direst of circumstances so will be mothballed in the majority, and'll probably start to take a backseat to more self-defensive designs. A lot of the big kit will get demilitarised or modified for a more civilian lifestyle.

In general, armed enough to ward of f remaining reavers, while not being conspicuously gun-toting, because that's just plain ill-mannered.
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#41
Why disarm when you payed good money to get guns?

Guns don't eat or use up oxygen. So they are going to remain in storage somewhere and are most likely forgotten.
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#42
Quote:Then the war ended. The ship-mounted weapons... (how do we complete this sentence?)

The war ended and, despite the hopes of certain people, peace broke out.

Most Fen combat personnel were citizen-soldiers and went back to their old lives. A few outliers, troubleshooters and 'professional soldiers' remained to keep Great Justice's coordination system operational.

The ship-mounted weapons either went into storage or were rendered down into raw materials for less violent purposes.

Combat-oriented ships were mothballed or demilitarized (to wit, see the Soviet demilled VFP Look! I'm A Ploughshare!, formerly ROU Frank Exchange of Views) with a few kept active for patrol duties (Boskone may have been broken and scattered, but Boskonians still haunt the less well-travelled paths), national/factional dick-measuring contests and just to keep the pilots sharp.

Weapons design would continue, though it'd be largely theoretical and kept to computer simulations with autofac blueprints drawn up Just In Case.

New ship designs followed the Federation multi-role paradigm; designed largely around peacetime operations but capable of self-defense, Just In Case. Strictly combat-oriented craft like the Blackbirds or Normandies are considered gauche, but they're not openly sneered at either.

By the end of 2015 the new normal has stabilized. Fenspace is a bit more militaristic, maybe a bit less innocent than it was before SOS-Con, but that lost innocence has been replaced by wisdom: despite the panic of the war and the unsteadiness of relations with the homeworld, no arms races have begin. The big navies of the end of the war have returned to coast guard duties. Boskone's gone back to a law-enforcement problem, not a military one. Nobody's listening to the meatheads demanding Fenspace start a cold war with the space powers. The peace is holding.

Until the next crisis, of course.
Mr. Fnord interdimensional man of mystery

FenWiki - Your One-Stop Shop for Fenspace Information

"I. Drink. Your. NERDRAGE!"
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#43
I'm getting the idea that we're agreed in principle.

Ship-mounted weaponry is unusual in Fenspace except during wartime, and the Convention is wise enough to know that it can't win a war (even a cold war) with any of the Space Powers of the 'Danelaw.

Most folks can name all the peacetime armed ships in Fenspace, since they're so uncommon: X-Wings, Blackbirds, Vipers, Hornblower-class cruisers (all four of them), Azu Squadron's ships(?), the Ciara, the Normandy, and the Epsilon Blade.

When wartime rolls around, the Archer-class and Gagarin-class ships' probe launchers become torpedo launchers and similar adaptations take place in other factions, but nobody thinks of those as "armed ships".

(Second-order effect: After a few years, the Justice subfaction of the Senshi will be over-ruled by Serenity I and those two Hornblowers in construction drydock will be completed without weapons.)
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."

- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012
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#44
Somewhere on my harddrive I have a story fragment set durring the assault on Boskone Prime.  In it the Starhawk's passenger cabins (in the nose below the cockpit) had been refitted as a large scale laser cannon (and it's power system), in addition to the top and bottom turrets.  Meanwhile in the cargobay all three of B.5's APE units are prepared to deploy and Vaccumn-suited Ranger assault teams are packed onto the catwalks and open spaces around them.
According to the proposed designations I supposed it'd be acting as an assault cutter.
After the war, the main gun would be removed and the passenger cabins re-installed.  The turrets had been there before SOS-con, (partially inspired by the Millenium Falcon's guns)
___________________________
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#45
robkelk Wrote:I'm getting the idea that we're agreed in principle.

Ship-mounted weaponry is unusual in Fenspace except during wartime, and the Convention is wise enough to know that it can't win a war (even a cold war) with any of the Space Powers of the 'Danelaw.

Most folks can name all the peacetime armed ships in Fenspace, since they're so uncommon: X-Wings, Blackbirds, Vipers, Hornblower-class cruisers (all four of them), Azu Squadron's ships(?), the Ciara, the Normandy, and the Epsilon Blade.

I wonder how CI will go in in 2020 when the first sister ship of the Normandy (the "Serenity Valley") finishes... most likely normally (in the inner system) just leave the ammunition of the main gun at home... or carry one/two shots when you expect to be more than a few hours away from help.
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#46
I was assuming the Dragon Wagon 2 operated by Frigga would be typical of what most people would have armaments-wise for self-defense, on a craft of that size.

A pair of forward mounted guns, aft guns and a point defense system. (The Dragon Wagon 2 uses autocannon, but replace with coilguns for anyone else). It's an average civilian cruiser (as in Cabin Cruiser), used to bring its owners and their equipment to wherever they need to be, with just enough armaments to bee-sting a pirate and make them think twice about picking them off. It can carry spacecraft, and was modified with a simple carrier catch on the aft wings to allow it to carry a couple of Choppers to convention for display.

In a pinch, it could transport a combat loaded 'squadron' and if somebody near Frigga was in real trouble and they needed an armed response, that's what they'd try do but against a dedicated Warship or carrier it'd be no match. It doesn't carry enough armament or ammunition to hang about in a firefight.
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#47
OK, second go at the combat types addition to the Great Justice page. I've hopefully softened it by mentioning it's reduced use since the Boskone War, and I've pulled the Battlecruiser, Super and Battlecarrier types to simplify things.

=== Combat Capable Ship Types ===

Fen in general don't like pointing out their armed vessels, but that hasn't stopped the [[Military Fen|mil-fen] from drawing up a simple taxonomy of military craft in Fenspace. The use of the combat type system diminished greatly after the [[Boskone War], due to the reduction in forces as threat levels dropped and people demilitarised their ships. That's not to say that most ships aren't armed, just that they are more discrete about it and mainly focused on self-defence.

* '''U.C.A.V.''' - Sometimes called '''Drones''', these are armed, (semi-)autonomous craft not capable of having a human-sized sapient be carried inside it. In general, U.C.A.V.s are smaller than Fighters due to lack of a cockpit.
* '''Fighter''' - The most populous military craft in Fenspace, carries one to two people.A.I. piloted fighters tend to call themselves A.I. Fighters rather than just fighters.
* '''Cutter''' - A small, armed craft that has a crew (three to five people) and space for them to move about comfortably. Normally used as patrol craft and scouts, and part of a Flotilla.
* '''Frigate''' - A fast armed vessel carrying a capture/assault squad and armed with 4 or more anti-ship level weapons. Normally part of a Flotilla.
* '''Destroyer''' - An independent command roughly twice the size of a Frigate, mounting at least one Rail Cannon or other anti-vessel level weapon. Also generally has a small craft for transportation.
* '''Cruiser''' - Much like a Destroyer, but carrying up to 4 fighter or assault craft and/or a C3Command, Control, and Communications section. Normally has two anti-vessel weapons.
* '''Battleship''' - A vessel mounting more than 4 anti-vessel level weapons and/or a Particle Beam weapon. Those not belonging to a recognised faction are closely watched by [[Great Justice] and the [[Space Patrol].
* '''Carrier''' - A large vessel used as a home base for fighter or assault craft. Normally mounts a squadron of fighters and assault craft for its platoon of 'Marines'. Mostly has point defence and anti-fighter weaponry.Doctrine will have these escorted by at least a Flotilla of Frigates, if not Destroyers or Cruisers.

There are subtypes of all the above, usually prefixed with one or more of the following:

* '''Assault''' - The Assault prefix is given to those craft optimised for getting boots on the ground. In general, it's an Assault ship's job to capture ships and facilities, and the Assault craft's job to support this. They also carry at least twice the number of troops available.
* '''Strike''' - A Strike craft is optimised for attack operations, if they don't blow it up they soften it up for assault craft. The troops aboard tend towards heavy weaponry and powered armour.
* '''Stealth''' - A Stealth craft hides what it is, allowing them to get close to their target. They also tend to be used on surveillance and intelligence missions.
* '''Cloaked''' - The submarines of Space, a Cloaked craft is (through design and technology) otherwise invisible to the vast majority of other vessels.


Any further opinions? Comments are welcome.
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#48
Cobalt Greywalker Wrote:* '''Stealth''' - A Stealth craft hides what it is, allowing them to get close to their target. They also tend to be used on surveillance and intelligence missions.
* '''Cloaked''' - The submarines of Space, a Cloaked craft is (through design and technology) otherwise invisible to the vast majority of other vessels.

Stealth/Cloak might be dependent on the type of instrument/sensor you use.

E.g. the Normandy can become practically invisible in IR... but is only "stealthed" for radar... and totally visible for human eyes.
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