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blackaeronaut Wrote:I'll tell you guys what. Ever since it came out that it was mostly because a CNN reporter spiced things up, I've promised myself that at the first opportunity available to me I'm gonna go have myself a nice chargrill chicken club sandwich with a large order of waffle fries and a nice tall glass of their fresh squeezed lemonade. :d I won't join you for that. CFA has a track record of donating to groups actively fighting against gay rights, and in some cases, specifically aiming to stripmine those rights, as in, make it outright illegal if they can manage it to be gay. I haven't had their food in years, nor do I plan to start.
--
"You know how parents tell you everything's going to fine, but you know they're lying to make you feel better? Everything's going to be fine." - The Doctor
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JFerio Wrote:I won't join you for that. CFA has a track record of donating to groups actively fighting against gay rights, and in some cases, specifically aiming to stripmine those rights, as in, make it outright illegal if they can manage it to be gay. I haven't had their food in years, nor do I plan to start. Proof?
blackaeronaut Wrote:JFerio Wrote:I won't join you for that. CFA has a track record of donating to groups actively fighting against gay rights, and in some cases, specifically aiming to stripmine those rights, as in, make it outright illegal if they can manage it to be gay. I haven't had their food in years, nor do I plan to start. Proof? http://equalitymatters.org/factcheck/201207020001, for one.
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Moreno and anyone else who espouses his views need to be permanently expelled from any government position. A person who thinks it's fine to use governmental authority to punish people for saying things they disagree with (despite the business of the person in question not, to anyone's knowledge, discriminating in any of it's practices) cannot be trusted to have said authority. This isn't something that can be dismissed as a "mistake" like Menino is trying to. The very idea should not even come up.
As for CFA themselves, I think in accordance with my principles I'll do exactly the same thing I'd do if this whole issue hadn't come up.
-Morgan. Which is to say, not eat out at all, there or anyplace else.
I agree that the issue shouldn't even come up. However, in the sort of culture where it wouldn't come up the issue of using governmental authority to dictate who can get married also wouldn't come up. Unfortunately the majority of people on either side of this (or any other) issue are _delighted_ to use governmental authority to bludgeon people they don't like, disagreeing only on who should be bludgeoned.
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Glidergun Wrote:blackaeronaut Wrote:JFerio Wrote:I won't join you for that. CFA has a track record of donating to groups actively fighting against gay rights, and in some cases, specifically aiming to stripmine those rights, as in, make it outright illegal if they can manage it to be gay. I haven't had their food in years, nor do I plan to start. Proof? http://equalitymatters.org/factcheck/201207020001, for one. Okay, I looked that stuff over... and I gotta wonder: is Mr. Cathy still donating to these causes? Here's my findings.
Marriage & Family Foundation and Fellowship Of Christian Athletes are genuinely benign. About the only thing even slightly anti-gay about them is their acceptance policies. Last time I checked, you can freely choose who you want in your club. Everything thereafter is just mudslinging.
National Christian Foundation and Exodus International are definitely questionable. The NCF is a granting agency that I would label as being negligent in who they give grants to. EI, on the other hand... Well intentioned, but utterly misdirected. Don't mistake stupidity for malice and all.
The Family Research Council... They honestly make me wonder what they really research. Mr. Cathy only donated $1000 dolars - a mere pittance in the grand scheme of things, and I doubt he's donated anymore ever since that Washington Post article came out. Same with the Georgia Family Council.
Now, if you can find me something that comes from a neutral third-party site, then I might be inclined to agree with you a little more. Reason being? As much as I support the LGBT community... about 66% of them do not support the heterosexual community. No, I can't really attribute that to any particular source. However, you can go ahead and ask around. Ask people who have an LGBT friend or who are LGBT themselves. They will most likely agree with you wholeheartedly. You see, the thing is that these people want everyone in the entire world to be gay. And some of this contingent don't care if you're straight - they're of the belief that anyone can be 'turned'.
Personally, I take slight offense to that. Anytime a man lays a finger on me in a manner that I would with a consenting woman... well, lets just say that completely creeps me out. Sorry homosexual men, but while I will support your desire to be able to marry, I will not be a potential spouse, boyfriend, or even fuckbuddy. I don't mind that someone's sexual orientation doesn't line up with my own, so long as they don't try to force it on me. But outside that, I'll be a friend to you, so long as you'll respect my boundaries.
And that is where I stand: comfortably in the middle, supporting both sides and wishing they wouldn't be at each others' throats. Because while, according to my religious views, while God may not appreciate people being LGBT, he would certainly prefer it if we didn't fight over the matter and just let each other live our respective lives in peace. It's a message that is quite often lost in the sea of absolutes that has our nation so polarized lately, and therefore: paralyzed.
Look, if you want to know just how stupid this whole matter is, look no further than Rachel Maddow. The woman is a living litmus test for these sorts of things, and even more so considering that she's an unrepentant lesbian. The most shocking thing about her is that as a Democrat-alligned political pundit, she is a remarkable equal opportunist in picking her targets. If you're in the political racket and you do something messed up, she's gonna fry you for it. Now, you would think that she'd have been all over this like flies on stink... but a quick Google for "Rachel Maddow Chick-fil-a" turns up... well, nothing that's connected. What this tells me is that Rachel Maddow sees nothing to rake Cathy over the coals for.
So, unless you can produce something from a neutral source that has scathing things to say about Mr. Cathy... I think I'll go get myself some chicken once I can afford it. Besides, if anything he's being more careful now about who he's giving money to, so chances are pretty good my dollar won't go to the likes of The Family Research Council.
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I'll see what I can do to find a more neutral third-party source for that, BA. It's tough, it seems like the "slanted" ones are quite a bit louder on a Google search, but there's indications of donations at least in 2010, and possibly 2011. I'll probably have to actually go digging into the national tax resources for Winshape, the charitable arm for CFA, and see if I can get a more recent paper trail on top of it. I'll also see if I can find the complete audio of the interview, it was the Ken Coleman Show.
Regarding the unwelcome advances... sounds like you've encountered a pocket of the culture that doesn't know when the hell to respect boundaries. Even worse are the ones who insist that everyone can be gay given the chance.
Oh, and the stupidity angle with National Christian Foundation and Exodus International? It doesn't matter if it's active malice, or done without forethought to the actual consequences for people caught up in it. It's still not right.
--
"You know how parents tell you everything's going to fine, but you know they're lying to make you feel better? Everything's going to be fine." - The Doctor
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Quote:Regarding the unwelcome advances... sounds like you've encountered a pocket of the culture that doesn't know when the hell to respect boundaries. Even worse are the ones who insist that everyone can be gay given the chance.
I have to chime in here. That isn't all LGBT folks, it's not even a sizable fraction. It's just that LGBT folks have their own share of the jerks at the bar who figure they can pick up any [gender of choice], even the ones not interested in [their gender], with enough charm, determination and (sometimes) chemical aid. Arrogant assholes are not limited to the straight community, after all. In my personal experience, I've always had at least a couple LGBT folks in my various social circles since high school (although I'll admit I didn't know the high school friends' orientation at the time; the 70s weren't a safe time to be out), and as a result have long been tangential to a larger LGBT community. None of them in all that time has even flirted with me, let alone hit on me aggressively. (Well, other than a couple of the bi girls. And one gay male friend gave me advice on my straight love life in college. ) Anecdotal to be sure, but a data point against that 66% estimate.
-- Bob
---------
Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.
I agree. I've seen this sort of thing myself, and even been on the receiving end of it a couple of times (I wasn't offended). There no "anti-heterosexual agenda" there; it's just a case of gay men behaving towards other men the way that straight men behave _all the time_ towards women. What's more, society strongly encourages that sort of behavior from straight men, to the extent that significant numbers of straight men will think there's something wrong with you if you _don't_ behave that way (I've been on the receiving end of that too). It's hardly surprising that some gay men would follow the example that's been crammed down their throat all their lives for how they're supposed to act towards people they're attracted to.
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Found out something mildly interesting. Rob Halford, the iconic banshee behind the metal mic of Judas Priest, is openly gay. I didn't know that before, but this is not exactly -shocking- news. It just puts him in the same category in my mind as Freddy Mercury. And he's just as cool. But he's also cool when it comes to tolerance. He articulated his thoughts on the Chick-Fil-A controversy over at Noisecreep while promoting the upcoming 30th anniversary re-release of his group's celebrated album, "Screaming for Vengeance."
Halford offered up some intelligent commentary:
Quote:"Before I get into this, I just want to say that I love America. I love the American Constitution and the First Amendment," says Halford, 60, whose main residence is in Phoenix, Ariz. "I'm actually watching a PBS documentary that I got on DVD about the life of John Adams. If you really get into the heart and soul of this great country, it's all about the constitution and the First Amendment and freedom of speech.
"Everybody in this country has the right to say what they think and feel and what best represents them. The people at Chick-fil-A have the absolute right to say and do what they want. It doesn't matter that all of these people disagree with their opinion. The question was how would the people that agree with what that man said do to support the company and how would the ones against his anti-gay remarks protest.
"The supporters have been showing up in droves, to spend money at the restaurants and peacefully assemble. But there has obviously been so many people who have gone out and boycotted the company. I think it's great. That's our right here. What you're seeing here are the elements of the American Constitution in all of their glory. It's a wonderful thing to see happening and talk about and the fact that everyone is discussing the gay rights issue is great."
Halford originally hails from England, yet as the article states, he resides in Arizona and clearly has a deep appreciation what is so appealing about this country. Many of us who were born here simply take our liberties for granted, and a fraction of us would happily shred them in order to silence those who disagree with their agenda.
Halford continues:
Quote:"I don't think that man thought too much about the business consequences of what he said, but I think he was standing for what he believes in. I don't agree with him at all, but God bless the man. It's as simple as that."
Some on the left who find Chick-fil-A's position offensive tend to instantly resort to shrill terms designed to shame and silence, often going so far as to label Chick-fil-A a "hate group," despite the fact that they don't discriminate against their customers or employees based on gender, race, or sexual orientation.
Calling Chick-fil-A a "hate group" not only trivializes the term "hate," but trivializes the suffering of those who have actually bled under the fangs of true hatred, the kind of hatred we saw toward Jews in Europe, women in the Middle East, and blacks in this country prior to the Civil Rights movement.
Halford sees this controversy for what it is: a difference of opinion, which is something we're allowed to have, express, and react to peacefully.
Excellent and good on him! But if he thinks he's going to make the left less hateful and spiteful towards people who disagree with them, well, he's got another thing comin.
(Sorry! Couldn't resist!  )
-Logan
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Quote:Some on the left who find Chick-fil-A's position offensive tend to
instantly resort to shrill terms designed to shame and silence, often
going so far as to label Chick-fil-A a "hate group," despite the fact
that they don't discriminate against their customers or employees based
on gender, race, or sexual orientation.
Bullshit!
http://smallbusiness.chro...pen-chickfila-11450.html
http://www.forbes.com/forbes/2007/0723/080.html
Quote:Calling Chick-fil-A a "hate group" not only trivializes the term "hate,"
but trivializes the suffering of those who have actually bled under the
fangs of true hatred, the kind of hatred we saw toward Jews in Europe,
women in the Middle East, and blacks in this country prior to the Civil
Rights movement.
Or homosexuals in the United States.
http://en.wikipedia.org/w...ple_in_the_United_States
Quote:Halford sees this controversy for what it is: a difference of opinion,
which is something we're allowed to have, express, and react to
peacefully.
Of course we are allowed to have a difference of opinion; but this isn't simply a difference of opinion. Chik-Fil-A as an organization funnels their profits directly into anti-gay and lesbian activities (BA - I am in the process of compiling a response to your note that some of these groups are benign; they are not.)
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I'm thinking that the people in charge of a Chick-fil-A outlet are pretty okay people, it's just that a good bit of what's been presented about the Upper management are starting to give me vibes of a certain local religious group which members of my family have a long running feud with. Not to mention how this is pressing buttons on my personal beliefs.
Still, I won't give Chick-fil-A any business, for they don't exist over here. And if I was over there, well there's the global restaurant/fast food chains and places seen on Man v Food I'd be considering first.
--Rod.H
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*shruggs* Well, I can always be wrong about things - my commentary about the groups that were support through Winshape was based on a rather quick readthrough. Although, I will stand by the question I asked earlier: are these groups still receiving donations through Winshape/Cathy?
Here's how I'm looking at this matter, in case no one's really noticed yet. The people that operate Chick-fil-a are obviously not bad people at all. The fact that Cathy has set up his company to embrace and espouse Christian values should be a non-issue, even if you are LGBT. The reason being that Chick-fil-a does not hire angry, bigoted people (some of the actions of some franchise owners have born this out already).
In fact, while I haven't been able to pay all that much attention to the news, I'm pretty sure that none of the 'kiss-ins' staged at any Chick-fil-a store has turned violent or that the perpetrators of those protests were ejected from the store. I could be wrong. Lemme go check... Nope. The only real bad thing was what some... ill intentioned person defaced a Chick-fil-a and has been arrested.
Okay, so there you have it. People at Chick-fil-a... generally good people. Even their employment figures bear this out. They only have a five percent turn-over rate in management, and a mere 60% among the crews (as opposed to the industry standard of 105% ... don't ask me how the hell that works).
Maybe this has something to do with the fact that Dan Cathy only wants happily married people running his franchises!? Perish the thought! After all, wasn't there some study that shows that happily married people that attend church regularly are happy in general!? Oh no! Really, you honestly have to stop and remember that the face of the church-going-happily-married-salary-man is one that has been tarnished by the acts of a very nasty minority. Because for every time you hear about some person that had such an image that was found out as a pedophile/rapist/deranged/murderer/racist... there's about several million others that are perfectly normal, good folks.
Okay, so now that we've established this... are there any people among the CFA owners/management that are leaning more into the radical/extremist side of things? Maybe. But I'm pretty sure that the fact that person is surrounded by more sane-minded individuals keeps them in check.
Still think I'm full of it? I honestly hope not. I got enough psychological issues as it is that wondering if I'm outright crazy might send me over the edge. 
Now, here I really get to the point...
If the folks at Chick-fil-a honestly had a hard-on for the repression of the LGBT community, then we would probably have not seen their very tolerant reactions over the last week. Remarkable, given that some of the communities they're located in I don't think it would have taken more than a phone call to have the protesters cleared out - 1st Amendment be damned in their eyes. So why would people as genuinely good as this... donate to organizations that openly hate and practice that hate? It simply does not compute.
Oh, you can dress it up all you like... but if Dan Cathy honestly felt this way, he'd be dumping just about every red cent he earned didn't need into the most virulent groups he can find... and making sure it happens through several fronts, just to make sure his image of a benevolent christian is upheld. And that is why I still ask if the organizations point out in the article Glidergun linked are still supported by Winshape.
And with that, I think I've said just about all I can on the matter for now.
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This will be my last comment on the matter, BA, at least with you.
If it wasn't for the donations, even if it's one time, I would still be eating there. I don't mind companies being run with Christian values. I can even agree with pretty much everything they do in the way they handle the business - it's their right, it's a private business, no one else has any say-so in their franchise selection process or hiring practices. In fact, I can respect that they can maintain that, especially in the current economy. And they make a damned fine chicken sandwich by my lights.
But that ends when they make even a single donation to a group aimed against LGBT values, and again, I've gotten indications that was as little as two years ago. And I would suspect that any such later donations are partially masked by the time it takes the bureaucracy to cough up the information for a given tax year. And besides, remember this... once they slap down the gays, which group do they go after next? Divorcees? 40 year old unmarried virgins? (Those may - or may not - be hyperbole.) And even if they've stopped, it may only be for now, until the noise dies down a bit and they think no one's watching.
Like Bob, I have a number of friends throughout the LGBT spectrum. To date, I haven't had any real significant issues with that community.
BTW, "they're not doing it NOW" is somewhat pat as a response. I haven't heard any indication of a trumpeted "donated to a pro-gay cause or group" to counteract any potential damage, at least from their corporate office area. In this case, individual franchise donation doesn't exactly count. Just because they stop, doesn't mean it's now all right.
--
"You know how parents tell you everything's going to fine, but you know they're lying to make you feel better? Everything's going to be fine." - The Doctor
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My thoughts on this are... kind of complex. I will start by saying that I fully support LGBT rights, including marriage.
If Cathy is spending his own money on donating to groups... that's free speech. There's nothing wrong or illegal, unless he's donating to groups that are actually involved in violent activities. I disagree with his position and I think less of him as a person for doing so, but he has that right.
If he's donating the company's money to those groups... that I find less acceptable.
If he is knowingly donating to violent groups... that's another thing entirely. At that point he's gone past free speech and into actual violation of legitimate law. At that point he needs to be in jail, not be boycotted.
My decision of whether or not to boycott the company is simple. There are no local franchises that I would have to either avoid, or not avoid, in my area.
--
Sucrose Octanitrate.
Proof positive that with sufficient motivation, you can make anything explode.
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