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Does this make sense?
Does this make sense?
#1
Right, so a few people know that SI fic I've been mucking around with. Anyway, I've been doing a few things with it (based on a video posted in the general discussion and the sum of quite a few things I've read). I finally figured out how to put some of the stuff I'd been thinking about down. There's also a few hints about what Noriko *is* in there. (Beyond the original concept which was a bit 'Cheeky Angel') It's a bit gakky, and definitely unfinished, but well... I was wondering what a people thought.

Quote:“I’m Kawaoru.” Kawaoru said. “All of him.”

“Huh?”

“The Kawaoru you know is a three dimensional reflection of me, existing in a form compatible with lilin consciousness. The Angels exist wholly in a dimension beyond human consciousness, what you would know as the Fifth Dimension. Metaphysics calls it the Room of Gauf.”

Again “Huh?”

The world disappeared. Kawaoru held up a piece of paper and drew a dot on it.

“This is a point. It has no height, no width , depth or concept of time. It just is.”

“Right, right.” I got it.

“ Now… add a second point. “ he drew another dot, “And fill in the line between them. That line between points is the first dimension. It has length… and only length.”

“The X direction. Right? “ I see where this is going, “With Y and Z as the second and third dimensions, and the Fourth being time.”

“Yes,” he smiled at me, “But for now lets just stay in two dimensions. Imagine somebody who lives solely in the second dimension. They have length and width, but no height… this stick figure”… he drew a simple humanoid shape. “If he were to encounter a 3 dimensional object, what would he see?”

“Slices in two dimensions as the object transects his home plane.”

Now I knew where this was going, I could begin to sound like something more than a child receiving a lecture.

“Yes. And if he were to move anywhere? “

“He cold only move along an X’Y plane.”

“Now, what happens if we fold his two-dimensional plane in the third dimension like so,” He twisted the paper once, then took both ends so they joined up. “Now watch. Imagine the two dimensional man walking along this path.” He drew a line starting at the split…

“It’s a moebius strip.” I said, “He can move in the second dimension and never reverse his direction, but still end up back where he started, because he’s been moved in the third dimension, and isn’t aware of it.”

“Precisely.” He smiled… perhaps a little surprise. “Now look up,”

I saw him and myself. A dark haired girl who just looked like she realised something profound, standing beside another Kawaoru

“What the?”

“So you understand?” alt-Kawaoru said.

“I do,” alt-me answered. “But that’s just…weird.” She shuddered.

“Follow me,” the Kawaoru beside me directed, tugging me gently by the shoulder. I think I knew where this was going…

We walked while he talked.

“Imagine what would happen then to those who can only perceive in three dimensions, moving forward in their own dimension, who’s path is then moved within the Fourth Dimension. They themselves will not be aware of it. To them, all they see is the snapshot of the Fourth Dimension which transects the planes of the Third Dimension they perceive… the ‘now’. Now would they notice if the Fourth dimension were looped back in it’s own moebius strip? As creatures they could keep moving forward, but still end up at the same startpoint over and over again.”

I had a horrible feeling about where this was going.

“On a larger scale, this is what happens to the world. Each Third Impact is like the tape binding the moebius strip together in time. It’s a crash in the universe triggered by the sudden absence a recurrence of sapient awareness. Those living on the strip can’t tell this is happening, they just feel themselves moving forwards, even though they may be treading over the same basic therritory.”

The flaw was obvious, “But I remember seeing myself in the future…” err.. “Past. Whatever?”

“Yes, you do. Because you retain your self awareness throughout the entire trip. Third Impact doesn’t just destroy the lilin. The end of each cycle destroys the evidence that it ever existed in the first place, while laying the foundations for the next to begin.”

Ends with the Third… begins with the two. Third Impact, and Shinji and Asuka on the beach doing an Adam and Eve. A little more thought on the whole creation myth and suddenly the expulsion from paradise began to make a lot more sense.

The juice left over from Third Impact was an Eden… and the desire for knowledge, the desire to have a self which could understand right or wrong, led to the expulsion from Eden.

I think…

“Now look up,” a familiar voice said from straight infront of me.

I turned my head, and saw the expression on my own face from a few moments ago. Or right now… or … whatever.

“So now you understand?” Kawaoru beside me asked.

“I do,” I said… then remembered myself saying the exact same words a few minutes before and shuddered as a few sanity points fluttered away on the wind “But that’s just weird,”

“Follow me,” the Kawaoru beside her directed, tugging her gently by the shoulder. I think I knew where she was going…

But didn’t we already go there? And then they’d come around and see the exact same thing, and another cycle would start over…. And… my head started to hurt.

“Okay… I understand that we’re looping around in a cycle. But how do we break the cycle?”

“A system will continue in motion unless an external force acts upon it.” he repeated something I remember him saying “By knowing it exists, we can try find a route that steps off.”

He turned left and I followed him.

“So then… why me?”

“Because I am an Angel” As if that explained everything. “Lets go back to our dimensions. Think of yourself and all the three dimensions you exist in, squished down to a point. Then, think of yourself in ten minutes time, in a different position. Another point. And the line between them would be the Fourth dimension of time. For a being that perceived time above Four dimensions, that’s what you’d look like… a long, amorphous thread, extending from when you came into existence, to when the thread is cut.”

“Timeline?” For some reason , I started to think of reality in terms of derivatives. I perceive a snapshot of the Fourth Dimension delta-t in length, then the Fourth dimension is sort of the integral of the third.

“Lifeline. Everything that you are, where and will be, simultaneously. You are birth, life and death all laid out in the one space. Everything that you are and will be.”

I looked at him fearfully,

“You can see the future,”

“Possibilities.” He said. “That change with every action or thought or decision made by the lilin. I can see you dieing. I can see you living. All along the one lifeline. Decisions made act as branches along the line, forming new lines. These tangle with the lifelines of others out there, forming the tapestry of life. The Fifth Dimension is the summation of all possible lifelines originating from the origin of the universe. The Fifth Dimension is the room of gauf, it is the one where both Angels and Lilin live.”

“But we’re three dimensional”

“Lilin perceive three dimensions but are fundamentally Fifth Dimensional creatures. The fruit of your knowledge allows you to perceive the universe in a way that causes the timeline to exist as perceived. The lilin soul is a functional part of the three dimensional reality, the perception of which gives it form.”

“Eh?”

Okay… now I was confused. The little beachball in m brain was starting to twirl.

“This restricts your immediate perceptions to a single 3 dimensional plane, but the soul… that which you are…intersects each and every possible timeline you are in. And each intersection is it’s own individual person.. some almost imperceptibly different from you and some utterly unrecognisable. The desire for individuality keeps you separate from these selves, it gives them form and shape.”

I think I got that.

“Echoes of different timelines reverberate through a soul. A person who dies in a plane crash in one line, might well have a strange fear of flying in another. A writer might call it his muse which allows him to get into the mind of a serial killer. Thoughts and ideas, half-fragments of memories and ripples of emotion bleed through and then disappear.”

I looked at him, feeling a little cold.

“And in those echoes and fragment are pieces of the previous lines of this world. Now, they are inside you.”

It also follows that Third Impact is some attempt to crash all of Mankind up to a Fifth Dimensional awareness by destroying Individuality... and why it usually fails. Actually... a lot of stuff about the series starts to make more sense when you think about it like this. Dead Sea Scrolls are prophecies based on some nutbars recollection of a previous cycle, and Seele's referring to TI as the apotheosis of mankind.
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#2
So essentially it's all one ginormous time loop? Ouch.
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#3
Needs some proofing, but other than that me likey.
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#4
blackaeronaut Wrote:So essentially it's all one ginormous time loop? Ouch.

Pretty much. Most of those in the Loop aren't aware of it.... like that TNG episode where the Enteprise kept blowing up. Or Haruhi.

HoagieOfDoom Wrote:Needs some proofing, but other than that me likey.

Thanks. I know it's rough... but it should be cleaned/cleared up whenever it's included sometime in the future. So long as it doesn't sound so ridiculous peoples brains are running out their nostrils

There's also the question of just how Pen-Pen is able to read the newspaper.
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#5
I think I understand the gist of it. Its kinda like if the events of Evangelion are a time loop, and every viewing around the world of the NGE anime was a seperate time loop, where the events happen as we know them and in a neighbouring parallel dimension a different set of events that mirrors our Evangelion about say 99% and that was mirrored by another parallel dimension ad infinity, and the Angels are aware of every single loop and deviation, we would get whats being described in the scene described above.
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Take Your Candle, Go Light Your World.
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#6
Quote:“Lilin perceive three dimensions but are fundamentally Fifth Dimensional creatures. The fruit of your knowledge allows you to perceive the universe in a way that causes the timeline to exist as perceived. The lilin soul is a functional part of the three dimensional reality, the perception of which gives it form.”
This is all messed up... first Lilim are four dimensional beings relative to their own frame of reference.... Humans can perceive the flow of time after all.  A stick man that can move around is 3 dimensional, those 3 just happen to be length, width and time as the third rather than depth.  A dot can also be a two dimensional being if it can also perceive time... just in that case it has nothing changing to perceive.  A literal perfect existence as it can't be improved further... unless you make it no longer a one dimensional being.  Nirvana is to become as the dot.
Also, its not actually a true time loop... its more insidious.  Humans aren't lilum, lilum were human though.  There is only 3rd impact... a dozen or a million times or something over.  Humanity died on the day Adam was released.  The Blast through the planet off axis just enough so that seasons stopped.  The general misery level keeps the lilum from noticing the stars have moved.  The think its the day after 3rd Impact and try and rebuild.  The Earth is in disrepair (exploding contient and all)... time to pull humanity up by its boot straps.   Only, its not quite true.  Its just that everything is around 15 years older than last time.  The Geofront is entirely man made.  Its taken a ginormous number of cycles to make... but all the digging, and the armour and skeletons of Eva are works of progress.
The lilum are now fighting back... After.dozens of attempts they've managed to actually build a working group of weapons.  Evagelions.  With it they are taking humanity back one soul or so at a time.  The reason 'Angels' are now huge is an arms race.  The Dead Sea Scrolls are computerized records of the cycles.  Keele is a cyborg as the metal contains his humanity.in the lilum shell.  The magi are 3 who are human again dodging the cycle.  Its why they send an angel just to kill the magi.   The 'Angels' hugeness is the result of half of humanity being absorbed.  The Berserk mode on Eva 01 is it eating parts of the 'Angels' so that it can take back the human souls of the lilum that make it up.  The absorbed are in dot mode.  They are in the white space.  they know nothing and everything all at once.  The 'Angels' are elsewhee, elsewhen the attack monsters are but harvesting avatars.  Lillith had a full body, but has been staked for long enough that the souls of that body are breaking free... explaining all those little legs.  The avatars are ever changing as more souls means moree power.
The whole thing is with the End of Evangelion and lanching the  Eva into space is because that puts the reclaimed souls out of reach.  Shinji keeeps respawning but has had as many different moms as their are Eva 01s in the space fleet.  There were actually 30 or more 'Angels' at one point.  much weaker ones now.  Basically a disturbing number of new game plus modes rather than a time loop.  the lilum just kept their inventory... the greater one their levels.
Every time 3rd Impact resets a few less people bother to come back...  NERV and SEELE are counter harvesting.  If they can cause enough damage they will get a shot at the avatar's controlers.  They've offed half the starting 'Angel's' number.  Kawaoru is apparently sick of the game.  Patern regonition.  A cumulative Shinji would end thiis so much faster.
At least that is my first impression.
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#7
Quote:Most of those in the Loop aren't aware of it.... like that TNG episode where the Enteprise kept blowing up. Or Haruhi.
So, as soon as Shinji wants to do his homework...

Pretty good, Dartz, except as Necratoid points out, humans live in three physical dimensions and one time dimension, so we're technically four-dimensional.
-- Bob
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Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.
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#8
I understand the point about 4 dimensions... I mean we are all moving forward through time, but we have no real control over it. We just follow the arrow that says Go That Way. We might be able to make it go a little faster or slower depending on relativity, but that's really about it. Time is really funny... because even a point moving along a line would be aware of the time taken to get from start to finish then. Even if it stands still, it's still moving forward in time.

If I sit here and do nothing. I've still moved in the 4th dimension. I know I'm a second ahead of where I was a second ago, and I can remember where I was a second ago. At the same time, everything else around me is also moving through time. The beer can that is steadily being drank beside me. If I just ignore it, it happily moves forward through time on it's own, etching out it's own timeline. I pick up a three dimensional intersection of that timeline, and move it away so it doesn't spill on my computer. I've moved it in three dimensions.... and I can only move it in three dimensions. The fourth dimension is moving forward of it's own accord.

My own awareness is a snapshot of time right now... along with my memory which is a function of all the other previous snapshots, which also changes with every new snapshot. I forget things all the time. I forgot where I was going with that analogy. We carry a recollection of our previous states, but we're not able to actually change where we are in time, or change what part of time we actually perceive. There's only 'now'.

My First thought about what a real fourth dimensional being would be, would be the Tralfamadorians of Slaughterhouse 5, able to exist in any moment along their lifespan that they so chose. Or maybe Doctor Manhattan of Watchmen, perceiving the past, present and future simultaneously.

We're not perceiving the past... just recalling it in the now. And by recalling that there is a past, we're aware that we're moving through the Fourth Dimension. It's a neat little trick. (And just triggered an idea)

Maybe I'm missing the point. This is a little beyond my normal area of thinking and then some. It took me two hours just to get this post out to this point.

Necratoid. That is a staggeringly cool idea. I don't think I'd be able to pull it off half as well as it demands. What I was thinking off, was that the Dead Sea Scrolls were the result of somebody catching an echo of the previous loop when they were still reasonably fresh, and writing it all down.
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#9
I like it and had no problem following it.
But then I'm the guy that used the many worlds theory of quantum mechanics to justify super martial arts, so I may be strange.
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Epsilon
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#10
Epsilon, that's pretty much all of us here. Wink
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