Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12
(11-07-2020, 01:11 PM)GethN7 Wrote: [ -> ] (11-07-2020, 12:50 PM)LynnInDenver Wrote: [ -> ] (11-07-2020, 12:42 PM)hazard Wrote: [ -> ]The presidential election isn't done on November 3rd anyway. That's just the election of the electoral college; the actual presidential election will be on 14th of December, and there's no guarantee that the electors will vote in accordance with the voters that send them. Faithless electors as a thing crop up time and time and time again.
It would take quite a number of them doing so given the current numbers, both confirmed and projected. That doesn't say it won't happen... but on the other foot, that would basically ensure that everyone with a head on their shoulders, both inside and outside the country, would consider American "Democracy" a complete and total failure. We're already going to be treated like anything we agree to can be undone literally every four years... having the Electoral College do that would basically have anyone approached by the U.S. (or U.S. companies, given the trade shitshow with China and elsewhere) considering that we can't be trusted to keep word over anything, at best agreements will become incredibly short term with high levels of concessions... at worst we will be left out in the cold as much as a former world power can be.
Gotta say, irrespective of who you wanted as President, I lament we're repeating mistakes done in countries once considered parody of actual democracy. Now the US has little room to criticize.
And we are also the unfortunate shining example China and similar can now hold up when they make the comments like "democracies are by the people, of the people, NEVER FOR the people." And not be laughed out of the room by other democracies. The whiplash from the past few elections is way too strong for it to be otherwise.
(11-07-2020, 01:11 PM)GethN7 Wrote: [ -> ]Gotta say, irrespective of who you wanted as President, I lament we're repeating mistakes done in countries once considered parody of actual democracy. Now the US has little room to criticize.
The US
never had much room to criticize, except possibly and ironically in the immediate aftermath of the American Civil War. Because immediately after that? The states that rose up in rebellion were forced to embrace a number of election regulation reforms that enfranchised minorities just so they could have representation with voting power in the federal legislature.
Of course, in the decades since those had been nibbled down to the point that when the whole civil rights movement kicked off they were trying to reclaim rights they had 100 years ago.
To put it quite simply, the USA has one hell of a PR campaign, but it's terrible at living up to it.
Well, unless you are white, male, and rich. Although being an Anglo-Saxon Protestant also helps.
Looking at the videos and they're crazy.
I don't think I've ever seen Americans celibrating like this. Like the end of Star Wars 3.
It's the end of a long period of darkness and despair and dehumanization and disease, of course there will be dancing in the streets!
Watching MSNBC, seeing lots of people celebrating the election of Vice President-elect Kamala Harris in particular. They think it's great that a woman of color can win such an important office. Some are saying it's amazing an immigrant from another country can be VP, especially someone of West Indian heritage. Those would be amazing, if either of them were true. When your own side can't get the facts right, 2024 is going to be a hard campaign for the Harris ticket.
i came online today intending to stay completely clear of politics, no comments, wasn't even going to look at the "Election results" since a whole hell of a lot of ballots are in contention. but i did look when the google news feed kicked out as the top thing that Biden had won, of course my response was what the fuck. i thought that the NYT piece was just wishful thinking on their part so i looked.and then i started cussing the cheating bastards I am not going to discuss this as almost all of you will disagree with me, but the democrats have stolen this election, if this goes on this is not the country i grew up believing in any more, but the bananas republic that i always feared the communists would turn it into.enjoy your FUCKING HELLHOLE I HOPE YOU CHOKE ON IT
In all seriousness, if you think that Biden is a red, you should alter your reality matrix.
Nancy Pelosi spoke in our Parliament.
She was a hardline right-wing corporatist. We had one party that was as right wing as the Democrats and we called them the Progressive Democrats and they died for being too right wing.
The Democratic party is, at most, centrist and is generally right-wing.
I've met Republican congress people that've been pleasant to drink with and we had a great discussion even if we couldn't agree on anything - I mean, I get it. And I get why people would vote for Trump enough that I had money on the swine - twice.
Take it from someone who trends further towards the left, day by day. Biden's not a Communist.
----
America won't go to shit under Biden. Everything will be fine. Once the virus is over and the momentum is arrested it'll be fine.
How you feel now is the whole world felt like Trump.
(11-07-2020, 06:09 PM)Rajvik Wrote: [ -> ]i came online today intending to stay completely clear of politics, no comments, wasn't even going to look at the "Election results" since a whole hell of a lot of ballots are in contention. but i did look when the google news feed kicked out as the top thing that Biden had won, of course my response was what the fuck. i thought that the NYT piece was just wishful thinking on their part so i looked.
and then i started cussing the cheating
Evidence needed. ("Trump said so" isn't evidence.)
(11-07-2020, 06:09 PM)Rajvik Wrote: [ -> ]bastards
I am not going to discuss this as almost all of you will disagree with me, but the democrats have stolen this election,
Evidence needed. ("Trump said so" isn't evidence.)
(11-07-2020, 06:09 PM)Rajvik Wrote: [ -> ]if this goes on this is not the country i grew up believing in any more, but the bananas republic that i always feared the communists would turn it into.
enjoy your FUCKING HELLHOLE I HOPE YOU CHOKE ON IT
To quote so many GOP supporters in 2016, "Your candidate lost. Get over it."
Rob, probably best to not waste your time. I'm refusing to engage, and he has nothing to say either here, or in the rest of the forum, that is worth anyone's time. You know he's just going to be moving goalposts and ignoring evidence "because the sources quoted are too biased to trust" while providing sources that are just as biased as he claims of anything anyone else has posted.
No use in getting angry. Just makes the polaroidation worse.
This isn't going to end by being excluding, but by talking with people and bursting the Q pubbles
(11-07-2020, 06:09 PM)Rajvik Wrote: [ -> ]i came online today intending to stay completely clear of politics, no comments, wasn't even going to look at the "Election results" since a whole hell of a lot of ballots are in contention. but i did look when the google news feed kicked out as the top thing that Biden had won, of course my response was what the fuck. i thought that the NYT piece was just wishful thinking on their part so i looked.
and then i started cussing the cheating bastards
I am not going to discuss this as almost all of you will disagree with me, but the democrats have stolen this election, if this goes on this is not the country i grew up believing in any more, but the bananas republic that i always feared the communists would turn it into.
enjoy your FUCKING HELLHOLE I HOPE YOU CHOKE ON IT
Chill. As someone who wanted Trump to win myself, let me explain a few reasons you need to calm down.
The President is NOT decided on November 3-4. The ELECTORS are decided, they vote the month after. Any discrepancies in the voting process prior can be worked out in the courts (and currently are being looked at). Happened in 2000, will happen now, it will decide whether Biden won fair or if he cheated.
If there was cheating, it will be hashed out and fixed. If Biden won fair and square, so be it, he won legitimately. I plan to wait and see what the legal challenges result in before passing judgment. Until then, NOTHING IS SET IN STONE.
So please, relax, and let things play out in court. Whoever wins based on what that decides is what will be set in stone (and after the electors cast their votes). Until then, CALM. DOWN.
(11-07-2020, 06:09 PM)Rajvik Wrote: [ -> ]i came online today intending to stay completely clear of politics, no comments, wasn't even going to look at the "Election results" since a whole hell of a lot of ballots are in contention. but i did look when the google news feed kicked out as the top thing that Biden had won, of course my response was what the fuck. i thought that the NYT piece was just wishful thinking on their part so i looked.
and then i started cussing the cheating bastards
I am not going to discuss this as almost all of you will disagree with me, but the democrats have stolen this election, if this goes on this is not the country i grew up believing in any more, but the bananas republic that i always feared the communists would turn it into.
enjoy your FUCKING HELLHOLE I HOPE YOU CHOKE ON IT
Haha what a Trumptard. BIDEN WON, GET OVER IT!!!
(11-07-2020, 07:32 PM)Labster Wrote: [ -> ] (11-07-2020, 06:09 PM)Rajvik Wrote: [ -> ]i came online today intending to stay completely clear of politics, no comments, wasn't even going to look at the "Election results" since a whole hell of a lot of ballots are in contention. but i did look when the google news feed kicked out as the top thing that Biden had won, of course my response was what the fuck. i thought that the NYT piece was just wishful thinking on their part so i looked.
and then i started cussing the cheating bastards
I am not going to discuss this as almost all of you will disagree with me, but the democrats have stolen this election, if this goes on this is not the country i grew up believing in any more, but the bananas republic that i always feared the communists would turn it into.
enjoy your FUCKING HELLHOLE I HOPE YOU CHOKE ON IT
Haha what a Trumptard. BIDEN WON, GET OVER IT!!!
No need to be spiteful. As Dartz put it, it just makes the polarization worse.
Besides, the only hope of anyone learning to live with things they don't like is being persuaded to see reason and accept when things are set in stone as truth. If the facts, when set in stone (and they aren't yet) determine who actually won, I'll accept that either way.
Also relevant; the following months will also show if Trump lost fair and square or cheated. Or if Biden lost fair and square and cheated, or Trump won fair and square and cheated. The election is indeed not over, what has been decided is only the composition, roughly, of the elector delegation.
Regardless of who won or lost though, if any deliberate attempts to illegally influence the elections are detected the only possible answer should be prosecution to the fullest extent of the law regardless of the positions of those who did so, past or present. While there's something to be said for prosecutorial discretion, things that are politically loaded like election fraud and interference should not have any. They should be must prosecute crimes.
I've pretty much told my brothers the same thing - until the electoral vote is in, we shouldn't be counting our chickens until they've hatched.
That said, I think we could all do with a little less vitriol here. There's been enough upsetting things going on lately, and I'm sure that even Geth agrees that a lot of this was brought on by the GOP going all Ride or Die on Trump.
To be quite frank, I find the GOP's mentality of trying to remain in power by any means possible to be utterly disturbing.
Well, I forget who exactly said it, but one of the GOP Senators said in regards to Trump's impeachment, if not word for word, that the Senate should leave it to the American people to decide come election day.
Well, whoever you were?
Happy Election Day, fuck-face.
The people have spoken.
Trump is fired.
And by all rights, a good number of you Senators should be as well. You only retain your seats by virtue of not being up for reelection, or by being in territory so Right Wing that it's eliminating all sense of the term "moderate" and sidling up to "extremist radical" territory.
I simply don't get it. I mean, yeah, in a ways, I do. A lot of these people want to have free license to be sexist, racist, isolationist ass holes who get to rule over their own personal fiefs. And I don't just mean these Senators, I also mean the people that vote for them. But do they honestly think that everyone else is just going to roll over and let them have their way? That we're always just going to be that apathetic? Just because they think they got some god-given manifest destiny to be horrible people?
I recall seeing, at one point in time in this very forum, that both sides are very well aware of what the other thinks of them. So if these people are that self aware, why don't they ever do anything to try and fix that image problem? Yes, I know Democrats are ones to talk about such things, with all the rhetoric about de-funding police, confiscating firearms, and promoting socialism. But that's the thing. For us, it's mostly just rhetoric. Most of us are realistic enough to know that things like blanket-bans on guns aren't going to work. (Beto O'Rourke had this lesson driven home - he would have been a shoe-in to replace Cruz, but he had to spout off about banning all semi-autos. Unfortunately, though, I don't think he's still quite gotten it yet.)
But by and large, the GOP has been bringing the offensive to bear on the rest of the Nation to such a degree that we hardly even have time to consider the reforms some Democrats would like to pursue. We're too busy trying to defend things like the well being of the Middle Class, civil rights for the LGBTQ population, voting rights for minorities, reproductive rights for women, the ability for immigrants to become tax-paying law abiding productive US citizens... This is shit that should not even be in question, and yet we're fighting that battle every fucking day.
This is not a tenable situation.
So what if we put a dent in China's GDP? Big fucking deal. All they need is a few months and they'll get it back. With interest. They're fucking China for gods sake. While they have shifted closer to a free market economy, it's still a communist regime, and one that sees their own population as nothing more than meat to throw into the grinder. Everything for the greater good. All they have to do is just wait us out. And in the mean time, all we've succeeded in doing is hurting our own GDP just as badly as prices for goods are jacked up while wages remain the same as ever.
But no. We have to be greedy. We have to pay our workers as little as we can get away with, charge them for goods and services as much as possible, get the Government to pay for as much as we can get them to, and all while contributing as little to the tax coffers as possible. After all, it's fine to bleed everyone else dry so long as you can retreat to your private beach in the tropics, right?
This needs to stop. The racism. The sexism. The bigotry. The unchecked greed. Even the religious persecution - if you really believe in Christ, then why the hell are you being such a piece of shit!?
This is why Trump has lost the election. He has angered so many people that a sufficient number of the Silent Majority has ceased to be silent. Where before these people have simply shrugged and said, "Whatever - not my fleas, not my circus", they have had it made abundantly clear to them by the GOP that it is indeed their fleas, and it is indeed their circus. And the GOP did it by mismanaging the government so horribly that it has had a clear and blatant impact on the lives of millions across the US - not one single corner of this country has NOT felt the impacts. Whether its been the lack of business because of an ill-advised trade war, the normalization of racism and violence, the blind eye towards abuse of police authority, the revocation of reproductive rights, the relaxing of environmental protections, or any number of other things this administration has done that is hurtful to all but the small handful of wealthy privileged few.
For quite some time, the GOP held power in the House, the Senate, and the Oval Office. They had ample opportunities to do good things. They have had very little excuse. They could have fixed the Affordable Healthcare Act, but they were so concerned about just getting rid of it altogether that they couldn't even agree on what to replace it with. They have been so dead-set on catering to corporations that they've all-but eliminated net neutrality, and we've seen the end results when people who were in the most dire need could not access the Internet because they couldn't afford the premium bandwidth. They have been so intent on courting the extremist-conservative religious right wing that they have actively made the lives of others miserable.
The GOP has simply failed to make this country a better place. They did not make America great again. They made us into a laughing stock. Elsewhere in the world, people do things like place Trump's visage inside urinal stalls. Do you think this is just people making a joke? News flash: this is what they think of America now - because we've betrayed so many trusts, our word is barely even worth garbage now.
I do not envy Joe Biden. He has a lot of work to do, and he has a lot that he is going to be fighting against because the GOP still hasn't gotten the message - that it's the people that matter, and not the churches and corporations. And so long as the GOP continues to permit churches and corporations continue to fill their campaign coffers, they are going to fight against all that is decent and humane. They are going to fight Joe Biden tooth and nail so they can continue to be greedy, selfish, ruthless, hateful, spiteful people who will steal all that they can from the American people.
God help us all.
(11-07-2020, 08:51 PM)Dartz Wrote: [ -> ]He said words
Actual words
Coherent Words
---Ireland's response to the Beeden speech.
Men dance in the dark
Change blows through the willow trees
Biden spoke real words
(11-07-2020, 09:12 PM)Black Aeronaut Wrote: [ -> ]I've pretty much told my brothers the same thing - until the electoral vote is in, we shouldn't be counting our chickens until they've hatched.
That said, I think we could all do with a little less vitriol here. There's been enough upsetting things going on lately, and I'm sure that even Geth agrees that a lot of this was brought on by the GOP going all Ride or Die on Trump.
I have to disagree on a few things, I thought the economy was getting better until COVID crashed the party, and if Trump was a bigot then why does even most of the news agree he got an absurdly high minority vote? For a man accused unironically of being Hitler, he's bent over backward to be nice to Israel and has Jewish relatives.
That aside, I more liked his economic policies than the man himself. Trump is an egomaniacal douche even on a good day, I'll be the first to admit it, and if Biden can keep the economy going and get the US to chill the racial tensions of late, I'll be happy to support him, I just was doubtful he could and am still waiting to see if he can pull it off.
As for any Republicans who are claiming the US will fall because of Trump's removal, that sort of hyperbole has been around since George Washington left office. Both Adams Sr and Jefferson were cursed as planning to destroy the country, Jackson was accused of wanting to be king. Lincoln had the Civil War happen because of titantic butthurt he won, FDR was accused of being a proto-Commie, every Cold War president engaged in some form of "a victory for the other guy means the commies win" crap, and Obama was accused of being willing to institute bizarro-world apartheid on white people by those unwilling to accept a black man in the White House.
If all the above are wrong, the US will be just fine if Biden has, in fact, won. And I will be the first to tell everyone else still whining to calm down and get over it when we know for sure.
(11-07-2020, 09:23 PM)GethN7 Wrote: [ -> ]... and if Trump was a bigot then why does even most of the news agree he got an absurdly high minority vote? ...
Because there is an absurdly high minority who are bigoted, both in your country and in mine. (How many Asians were harangued or attacked after the coronavirus made its way to North America? How many blacks go to jail for crimes that others get fined for committing? How many aboriginal people have gone missing with nobody caring? How many non-Christians routinely get attacked for their religious beliefs? And how many of any of those groups have high political office anywhere in North America? These questions are rhetorical.)
(11-07-2020, 10:14 PM)robkelk Wrote: [ -> ] (11-07-2020, 09:23 PM)GethN7 Wrote: [ -> ]... and if Trump was a bigot then why does even most of the news agree he got an absurdly high minority vote? ...
Because there is an absurdly high minority who are bigoted, both in your country and in mine. (How many Asians were harangued or attacked after the coronavirus made its way to North America? How many blacks go to jail for crimes that others get fined for committing? How many aboriginal people have gone missing with nobody caring? How many non-Christians routinely get attacked for their religious beliefs? And how many of any of those groups have high political office anywhere in North America? These questions are rhetorical.)
I don't doubt that is true in some places, but I must respectfully register doubt it's as omnipresent as you imply, at least my own look into that seems to not support that, but I'll be happy to admit error if I'm wrong.
That said, my point was that if Trump made a point to crush minorities, then the fact a LOT of them voted for his re-election means they are either too stupid to know what's best for them (and please tell me no one here is going to unironically argue such unabashed racism), or they honestly did not agree he was working against their best interests.
I almost took that easy potshot just now, but no. Noli esse culus. Being insulting for the sake of it won't help anything or anyone, save those who want to drive partisan divisions even further apart.
One of the reasons I believe everyone, regardless of political alignment, should give Biden a chance to prove his probity and competence (and I don't even like Biden's politics) is that I'm a student of history, and if Biden really has won the presidency, then even if I don't agree with his politics, if he at least proves competent at being a head of state, then that's the important part. Personal prejudice should be separated from an objective evaluation of his competency and integrity as a political leader.
One thing Biden has done to win immediate points from me is being conciliatory to his opponents in apparent victory and being willing to wait for all the legal issues over the election to be settled if need be, just to make sure he doesn't enter office with a Rutherford Hayes cloud of illegitimacy hanging over his head. I may not agree with his political positions (I'm not a fan at all of his economic stances or many of his proposed foreign policy ones), but his graciousness in apparent victory and willingness to see the verification of his election as a positive shows prudence and foresight, and if he really is going to be President, that's something I hope to see in any leader, regardless their faction.
I'll state it again, Geth.
This is China we're talking about here.
They care very little about how they get there, just that they get there. They'll do whatever it takes. Whether it's making artificial islands to expand their territory into otherwise international waters, sacrificing their population for the sake of maintaining appearances and stemming panic, using social media platforms to sway public opinion, or harvesting ethnic minorities for organs - there is no low that is too low for them because people are resources, and nothing more.
You don't win trade wars against mindsets like that. Much like in the movie,
Wargames, the best move is to not play at all. And the US has been on the receiving end of that treatment as other countries - not just China - take their business elsewhere because we can't be trusted to keep a deal that we've made.
Darth Vader we are not. There are consequences for being all, "I'm altering the deal. Pray I don't alter it any further."
The man is no business genius. It only seemed that way because he was letting big business do everything they wanted to. And while this might sound good, it really isn't - we already have plenty of anecdotal evidence that when you let businesses do whatever they please, there is certainly an initial gain... and then the bubble pops.
I'm no expert by any means, but I'm pretty sure that all we were seeing was a Dead Cat Bounce - that the rally would have been short lived anyhow, regardless of COVID-19. Really, I think the only reason why the economy was getting better was because it was recovering from all the shocks from Trump's trade war - not only with China but seemingly with the rest of the world as well. But like I said, China - hell, the EU and Russia as well - has the resources to weather a trade war with the US for any length of time. The EU because it's the friggin' EU. Russia has their oil reserves, which countries on either side of the continental divide dearly want, sanctions be damned. China because they'll make deals with anyone, no matter whose blood is on the money.
As for minorities...
It's really too early to say for certain. The only information we have as of yet to go on are surveys financed through both public and private means. The data won't truly shake out until the midterms.
But what do I think?
I think that it's an illusion. Enough of the demographic that you would have typically associated with the GOP decided to side with Biden that the share of minority voters appears to be larger. There's also the fact that this election has had a far greater turn-out than the 2016 election.
But even if it isn't and there really were more minorities voting for Trump than the Democrat's candidate this time?
I'd wager that most of the minorities that voted for Trump didn't vote at all in the 2016 election. That, I think, is mainly because Joe seems like a milquetoast example of a man to these people. Given the choice between two rich old white guys, they'll take the one who throws shade over his opponents on Twitter, never mind that he could be better using his time to actually do his damn job.
Trust me, I know the type. They fucking love dickheads and ass holes, because that's what they are, too. I've had to work side by side with people like this, and more often than not they can't hold better jobs because they're really that caustic. Much like people who are homeless not because they lost their job, but because their worldview is so distorted that they can't even get a job.
There's also the culture to take into consideration. Shameful as it is, a lot of these people fucking worship black celebrities like 50 Cent, all because they buy into this mindset that if they're gangsta enough, they could be rich like he is. And 50 Cent is all in favor of Trump because Biden wants to raise taxes on people who make over $400k/year. And these young black men in the inner city all follow what 50 Cent says, never mind that it doesn't matter for them even if they made $150k/year, because they all want to be 50 Cent.
To understand what I'm talking about, look at the cartoon series, The Boondocks. I never liked The Boondocks because I've met way too many people who were the stereotypes depicted in that show. And as bad as it is, those stereotypes exist for a reason. It's a fucked up reason, but unfortunately it's truth. The only difference between The Boondocks and Real Life is that Boondocks takes the caricatures of the real life stereotypes and amps them up to 11 for comedic effect. Otherwise, it's all the same fucked up attitudes and delusions - so much so that it just makes me cringe.
If you need another example, look up the official music video for Childish Gambino's "This is America". (Warning: NSFW) Every aspect of the video is a commentary about how Black culture in America has been shaped, from the facial tics in Gambino's face (A reference to Jim Crow - the character, not the laws that were named for Jim Crow), to the rider on a white horse that gallops through the background (a reference to the film,
The Birth of a Nation) Even the school uniforms are a commentary on how they were most often enforced only in public schools in inner city areas with large minority populations, and how it only dehumanized young Black people as well as doing nothing to solve any real issues.
That's the minority vote that Trump is winning, and why I don't make very much of it at all. It's not the ethnicity Trump is trying to win over. It's the culture - one that he would very much like to see remain in place because it suits him, and those like-minded to him.
Good points, those are all compelling arguments.
On trade, maybe you're right, the only reason it looked so good was that the other shoe had yet to drop from the fallout of the blowback to Trump's trade warring, and COVID showing up just brought it crashing down sooner than expected. I'll grant you that may be quite true.
And I don't discount Trump probably got votes from those who usually don't vote because he's a showman who knows how to impress on a crude (maybe even primal) level to people who otherwise are not impressed by political figures. That's a very good argument that likely has some truth to it.
As for Biden wanting to tax the rich, I'm not entirely opposed to that, to be honest. Whether he can pull it off is another, but I'll give him a chance to prove himself, he'll have four years to make good on trying at least. If it results in an even better economy long-term, then I'd be the first to admit it.
And I've watched the Boondocks too, and I find it very hard to disagree with your assessment in that regard. Trump's appeal is that he's a brazen asshole irrespective of his societal standing, and while that does have a form of appeal to people who otherwise would contemptuously ignore a rich white guy, it's not a good barometer of his effectiveness at doing anything positive for people, just that he's good at getting their attention in a negative way.
It's been called by the media. There are going to be legal challenges, naturally.
Barrister
But we've got to verify it legally, to see
Mayor
To see?
Barrister
If she
Mayor
If she?
Barrister
Is morally, ethic'lly
Father No.1
Spiritually, physically
Father No. 2
Positively, absolutely
Munchkins
Undeniably and reliably Dead
Regarding Trump being a egomaniacal douche.
That, for me, is inherently a disqualifying trait for leadership, and especially high level leadership. The way Trump has been reacting to minorities or even political opponents with violence and brutality first, foremost, forever, and only shows why. He isn't sending officers of the peace to restore order and enforce the law, he's sending occupying forces to stomp out dissent and who cares who dies.
I don't like Trump's politics, and I probably won't like Biden's politics either much like how I didn't like Obama's. But their politics can be worked with, whereas whenever Trump gets involved every plan falls apart, including the plans of his own administration.
Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12