Drunkard's Walk Forums

...I'm throwing money at my computer right now.  WHY ISN'T THIS BEING WRITTEN?

Quote:SkyeFire wrote:

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Oh, yeah, the Gilgamesh thing.  I figure the Eternal Soldier has prior claim -- Goldenrod is just a pale reflection born out of garbled legends, a bit like the 5th war's Assassin.  DJ's going to stomp Gilly for sullying his reputation....

This, though, doesn't really hold water too well.  Longinus of the Lance dates back someplace between 1,950 (assuming the Anno Domini calendar is as inaccurate as believed, and Yeshua of Nazareth was born in the early 30 ADs) and 1990ish (accurate AD calendar) years, depending on how accurate you want to be and/or how much historic events in the NXE timeline match ours.
1.  Gilgamesh, in our history, dates back a good 2,500 more years than that.  The Epic of Gilgamesh, even, dates back at least 1,800 years BC.2.  If my memory of NXE serves me right, the Eternal Soldier was originally Longinus.
There are ways to reconcile this, but it has to be done- it's too big a hole to leave open, especially when Gil exists.  NXE got away with a handwave- Croft meeting Gil, not so much.  Possible explanations?
-Time travel.  Not strong enough of a patch.-Kaleidoscope f*ery?  Too easy, and too often invoked, but it could work.-Gil being a fake?  Going to have to Word of God that one in, and it requires you to remove the historical record of him that we have in our world from the fictional one.  It could work.-History is wrong re: the Crucifixion?  Difficult, given the Romans and their records, and the canonical In Nomine take on Christ (God came back, and we missed it!?)  Could be possible.-Reincarnation?  Heroic Spirit Gil means no reincarnation in that direction.  Ancient magecraft incarnating the future Eternal Soldier, which then reincarnated as Gil... and eventually as Longinus, in a stable time loop?  Probably how I'd do it.  We know that it's possible to summon spirits of people who haven't died yet, so it's at least doable in Nasu.
I think I'm massively overthinking this... but then, I'd like to see it written.

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My Unitarian Jihad Name is: Brother Atom Bomb of Courteous Debate. Get yours.

I've been writing a bit.

Well, NXE 3-8 itself, where the explanation for this is first given AFAIK, asks the question "How do -you- explain that both Achilles and Gilgamesh predate Christ?" - and Gendou responds "How do you know they do?".

Meshing that with a setting where inaccuracy of the historical record isn't as plausible wouldn't be entirely trivial, but should be doable, without some of the hoop-jumping you're looking at.

Also, I understand the Heroic Spirits as more or less deriving their existence from their legends, even if they didn't actually exist the way the legend depicts them. Add in the idea that not every incarnation of the Eternal Soldier necessarily knows that that's who and what he is, and it doesn't seem impossible that you could have the Eternal Solder born as Gilgamesh, who enters into legend (and develops into a Heroic Spirit) as something independent from the Eternal Soldier, who has a legend and is a Heroic Spirit of his own.

If I were working on something like this, I'd probably just say that although the Eternal Soldier's reincarnations are sequential from his own perspective, they aren't necessarily in order with respect to linear time - a variant of the seed idea for a religion I came up with a decade or two back, in which that same idea is applied to the only soul which exists, and everyone who's ever lived has been an incarnation of that soul.

Also, I agree: what is this doing in "should not be"?

Quote:Also, I agree: what is this doing in "should not be"?

Indeed, indeed. I agree in full. This should be over in NEW FANFIC ANNOUNCEMENTS, because you're GOING TO WRITE A CHAPTER TODAY, aren't you?
--
Sucrose Octanitrate.
Proof positive that with sufficient motivation, you can make anything explode.

I'm not a Nasu-verse scholar, but I'm under the impression that the heroes on the Throne of Heroes aren't actually the souls of the dead heroes, but are instead reflections of the stories humans tell about them. I am more confident that the Servants summoned in the Grail Wars aren't the actual heroes, but are reflections of the beings on the Throne. This is why they have different characteristics depending on class. It also means that a servant summoned in more than one war won't remember the earlier ones.

Arthura and EMIYA are exceptions in that she gets summoned from a moment before she dies and he's a counter guardian.

And we should probably cut this off here as Nasu debates have no end point. Just some things to look up for yourself.
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No, I don't believe the world has gone mad.  In order for it to go mad it would need to have been sane at some point.

Riffing off Skyefire's post to make a Should Not Be:

I have been Roland, Beowulf, Achilles, Gilgamesh, Clark Kent, Mary Sue, Skysaber. I have been called a hundred names and will be called a thousand more before the sun grows dim and cold....
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."

- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012

Quote:Deadpan29 wrote:

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I'm not a Nasu-verse scholar, but I'm under the impression that the heroes on the Throne of Heroes aren't actually the souls of the dead heroes, but are instead reflections of the stories humans tell about them. I am more confident that the Servants summoned in the Grail Wars aren't the actual heroes, but are reflections of the beings on the Throne. This is why they have different characteristics depending on class. It also means that a servant summoned in more than one war won't remember the earlier ones.

Arthura and EMIYA are exceptions in that she gets summoned from a moment before she dies and he's a counter guardian.

And we should probably cut this off here as Nasu debates have no end point. Just some things to look up for yourself.

Actually, that is incorrect.  The Heroic Spirits on the Throne are the souls of the heroes, who are distorted/augmented to a certain degree by their legend.  For example, Vlad the Impaler wasn't a vampire while he was alive, but has gained vampire powers as a Heroic Spirit because everyone and their brother knows about Dracula.
Anyway, back on topic:Shirou Emiya finds the Enchiridion.
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Stand between the Silver Crystal and the Golden Sea.
"Youngsters these days just have no appreciation for the magnificence of the legendary cucumber."  --Krityan Elder, Tales of Vesperia.

Quote:Jorlem wrote:

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Actually, that is incorrect.  The Heroic Spirits on the Throne are the souls of the heroes, who are distorted/augmented to a certain degree by their legend.  For example, Vlad the Impaler wasn't a vampire while he was alive, but has gained vampire powers as a Heroic Spirit because everyone and their brother knows about Dracula.
Anyway, back on topic:Shirou Emiya finds the Enchiridion.

Very true.  This is why I brought up the 'hoop-jumping'; if you become a Heroic Spirit, you stop reincarnating.  Your soul gets yanked out of that entirely, and stuck in the Throne for the rest of multiversal eternity.
Also, I reread that bit of NXE before my post.  "How do you know" is a handwave- it works in NXE because Roland, Beowulf, Achilles, and Gilgamesh are not characters in NXE.
The problem with having an 'Eternal Soldier' reincarnating is simple; where does it come from?  Consider, for example, canon Gil- his legend has him as 'the first king'... and yet he died, went to the Throne, and stopped reincarnating.  Similarly, any such 'first soldier' or 'undying soldier' would die, become a Heroic Spirit, and have some sort of legend/NP about not dying when they're killed, or being the fount from which all later soldiers spring.  No reincarnation there, as far as Nasu mechanics go... so the ES has to be a soul that never became a Heroic Spirit, something other than a human soul (like the Slayer gift, maybe?), or not literally those four people (which ties back into the metaphysical addon package concept, really).
How's this?  The Eternal Soldier is essentially a Noble Phantasm.  It is the crystallization of the experiences of all soldiers, endowed with the metaphysical 'weight' of all that time and life experience.  Spend four years in the Army?  You've just contributed to the ES.  Be a Spartan warrior all your life?  Bigger contribution.  It is 'held', in a spiritual sense, by one person in all the world, grafting itself to a newborn's soul as its previous one passes on- not unlike a Sidereal Exaltation, in that way.  Back in antiquity, it wasn't nearly as 'big', so its effects- passive familiarity with combat, mostly- weren't nearly so pronounced.  That changed while Longinus held it.
Why?  Who knows?  Something to do with the events of the Crucifixion, maybe?  The legend of Longinus, Saint Longinus of the Lance, warping the legend of the memory he carried, or possibly just the Phantasm reaching some sort of critical mass point?  Maybe it was just the Roman Empire- all those legionnaires, all career soldiers, all trained in the same disciplines, and forming their own collective legends far and wide- but the Eternal Soldier remembers those times- those *skills*, more strongly than others.
The familiarity that being the Eternal Soldier imparts is a significant leg up learning to fight.  The metaphysical weight of it makes its bearer more important, in terms of fate- they will, if the world has any say in it, be a major player in events.  If properly tapped- invoked, as it were- it allows its bearer to accomplish feats thought impossible.  Not sorcery, but close enough, strong enough, to potentially be mistaken for it.  DJ Croft's mantra/boast has all the trappings of a proper Nasuverse spell aria, too, so that even fits!
So I thought you were talking about this Enchiridion at first, Jorlem.  I was very confused.
Also, for some reason, I imagined Ikari Shinji finding it.  Either of it...

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My Unitarian Jihad Name is: Brother Atom Bomb of Courteous Debate. Get yours.

I've been writing a bit.

"We don't talk about those Colonials - we just assign them to the Battlestar Pegasister."
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."

- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012

Quote:Bluemage wrote:

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...I'm throwing money at my computer right now.  WHY ISN'T THIS BEING WRITTEN?

[/quote]

Quote:....because I'm not good enough (or possessed of sufficient time) to write it?  

Quote:

Quote:SkyeFire wrote:

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Oh, yeah, the Gilgamesh thing.  I figure the Eternal Soldier has prior claim -- Goldenrod is just a pale reflection born out of garbled legends, a bit like the 5th war's Assassin.  DJ's going to stomp Gilly for sullying his reputation....

This, though, doesn't really hold water too well.  Longinus of the Lance dates back someplace between 1,950 (assuming the Anno Domini calendar is as inaccurate as believed, and Yeshua of Nazareth was born in the early 30 ADs) and 1990ish (accurate AD calendar) years, depending on how accurate you want to be and/or how much historic events in the NXE timeline match ours.

[/quote]

Quote:I was going to claim Rule Of Cool / Eyrie Effect, but then I had a brainwave:  who says the Eternal Solider reincarnates linearly?  Heck, Archer!Shirou did it -- twice, if what I've heard about the 3rd War is accurate.  Not to mention, what if reincarnation and/or summoning can work across different branches of time, as in "The War of Kings"? (which I WISH would get updated, dangit, that story had legs).  An early draft of this snippet actually had DJ!Lancer mention knowing Asuka!Bazette from "another branch of time," as well as her "making her own bargain" to keep getting reincarnated herself somewhere/when close enough to his own....

Quote:

Okay, I really should read the entire thread before posting replies....

Anyway, I have an alternate suggestion: Some plucky band of too-clever mortals (NERV, anyone?) get fed up with the way that Gaia and Alaiya carry on, and come up with a way to slip their own joker into Gaia and/or Alaiya's deck -- a Heroic Spirit-class combatant who's a free agent and devoted to justice. Maybe summoning canon DJ crosstime from some variant of the NXE-verse.
...although now I can see some problems with that.
Hm... okay, try this: the true natures of some (many?) Heroic Spirits rebel against how they become warped by their legends, and "splinter off" an untouched fragment. And the Eternal Soldier is the serial reincarnation of these splinters, rather than the "main" Spirits residing on the throne.
Now, that raises the intriguing possibility that the ES becomes more powerful over time, as he accumulates reincarnations.

Quote:Well, NXE 3-8 itself, where the explanation for this is first given
AFAIK, asks the question "How do -you- explain that both Achilles and
Gilgamesh predate Christ?" - and Gendou responds "How do you know they
do?".

I had always assumed that this was a reference to John 1, which sets the creation of Christ at the same time as the creation of the universe.  I think the comment is more about the nature of the divine -- while considering the timeline in all well and good, it doesn't necessarily apply given the powers involved.  And that a matter like reincarnation is better taken on faith.
-- ∇×V

Non-sequential reincarnation is a thing in the oriental traditions anyway, isn't it? The possibility of being visited/influenced by the spirits of Honored Descendents as well as Ancestors, at least.
--
"Anko, what you do in your free time is your own choice. Use it wisely. And if you do not use it wisely, make sure you thoroughly enjoy whatever unwise thing you are doing." - HymnOfRagnorok as Orochimaru at SpaceBattles
woot Med. Eng., verb, 1st & 3rd pers. prsnt. sg. know, knows

Quote:SkyeFire wrote:

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Okay, I really should read the entire thread before posting replies....

Yes, you should... specifically, my last post.  Reincarnation of Heroic Spirits in Nasuverse?  Nope.
The problem here is that we know five names (well, six counting DJ) that the Eternal Soldier has had; Roland, Beowulf, Achilles, Gilgamesh, and Longinus.  Gilgamesh is a confirmed Heroic Spirit, which means that whatever chain of incarnations that led to him stopped there.  If non-linear reincarnation is possible, then Gil could *theoretically* have been however many people as the Eternal Soldier, been incarnated as King of Uruk, died, and ascended to the Throne... but none of those prior incarnations could've been Heroic Spirits.
Now, the requirements to become a Heroic Spirit are fairly indistinct, as is the number of said Spirits extant.  It's quite possible that most of the Soldier's incarnations just weren't sufficiently badass or sufficiently famous to make the cut- I'd expect it- but Achilles?  Roland?  They're badass, and apparently famous enough to be named by the Soldier... so how could they not be Heroic Spirits?  It wouldn't make sense.
...what we really need to do here is hash out how Nasu mechanics and In Nomine mechanics fit together; if you have IN!God stepping in every few times the Soldier dies, giving the Throne a copy of his current incarnation, and sending the real soul off to a new life, it neatly sidesteps pretty much all the problems...

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My Unitarian Jihad Name is: Brother Atom Bomb of Courteous Debate. Get yours.

I've been writing a bit.

Nasuverse xover is getting a lot of chatter for a "Should Not Be" - are folks sure it isn't a "Should Be"?
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."

- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012

Trying to understand the Nasuverse pretty much leads to Should Not Be all on its own.

Edit to add crossover: Today, we've secretly replaced Kihl Lorenz with Eduard Khil. Wait a minute... IT ALL MAKES SENSE NOW!!


Edit 2: Yuku is a sucking morass.
--
"Anko, what you do in your free time is your own choice. Use it wisely. And if you do not use it wisely, make sure you thoroughly enjoy whatever unwise thing you are doing." - HymnOfRagnorok as Orochimaru at SpaceBattles
woot Med. Eng., verb, 1st & 3rd pers. prsnt. sg. know, knows

Here's something that wormed its way into my mind and forced me to post it:

Late Night with Conan Edogawa the Barbarian.

Quote:Bluemage wrote:

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Quote:SkyeFire wrote:

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Okay, I really should read the entire thread before posting replies....

Yes, you should... specifically, my last post.  Reincarnation of Heroic Spirits in Nasuverse?  Nope.
The problem here is that we know five names (well, six counting DJ) that the Eternal Soldier has had; Roland, Beowulf, Achilles, Gilgamesh, and Longinus.  Gilgamesh is a confirmed Heroic Spirit, which means that whatever chain of incarnations that led to him stopped there.  If non-linear reincarnation is possible, then Gil could *theoretically* have been however many people as the Eternal Soldier, been incarnated as King of Uruk, died, and ascended to the Throne... but none of those prior incarnations could've been Heroic Spirits.
Now, the requirements to become a Heroic Spirit are fairly indistinct, as is the number of said Spirits extant.  It's quite possible that most of the Soldier's incarnations just weren't sufficiently badass or sufficiently famous to make the cut- I'd expect it- but Achilles?  Roland?  They're badass, and apparently famous enough to be named by the Soldier... so how could they not be Heroic Spirits?  It wouldn't make sense.
...what we really need to do here is hash out how Nasu mechanics and In Nomine mechanics fit together; if you have IN!God stepping in every few times the Soldier dies, giving the Throne a copy of his current incarnation, and sending the real soul off to a new life, it neatly sidesteps pretty much all the problems...

You'd also need to alter how reincarnation works in the Nasuverse, so it doesn't reset reincarnated souls back to factory specs before sending them back to Earth.  (This is why Heroic souls are removed from the cycle in the first place: so they don't get wiped.)  Of course, changing this would potentially remove the Throne of Heroes altogether, so, hmm...
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Stand between the Silver Crystal and the Golden Sea.
"Youngsters these days just have no appreciation for the magnificence of the legendary cucumber."  --Krityan Elder, Tales of Vesperia.

Of course, it's entirely possible that the theories on the Throne of Heroes that we know from Nasu are quite simply -incomplete-. They are after all a human understanding of an inompletely-comprehended system.
--
Sucrose Octanitrate.
Proof positive that with sufficient motivation, you can make anything explode.

I've been wondering, and this is a better place than many to ask - Do you suppose sucrose octanitrate is what they use to make Choco-Frosted Sugar Bombs cereal?

Edit to avoid double post:

A wacky bunch of wrongly-convicted Jamaican misfits must pull together to form a team in order to survive a public execution in an obstacle-laden bobsled course, in

THE COOL RUNNING, MON
--
"Anko, what you do in your free time is your own choice. Use it wisely. And if you do not use it wisely, make sure you thoroughly enjoy whatever unwise thing you are doing." - HymnOfRagnorok as Orochimaru at SpaceBattles
woot Med. Eng., verb, 1st & 3rd pers. prsnt. sg. know, knows

Quote:ClassicDrogn wrote:

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A wacky bunch of wrongly-convicted Jamaican misfits

...and here I thought you were going to go for the 'Ey, mon!-Team.
"A Jamaican bobsled team, convicted of a crime they didn't commit..."

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My Unitarian Jihad Name is: Brother Atom Bomb of Courteous Debate. Get yours.

I've been writing a bit.

At least they weren't Celtic Jamaicans. I'm having trouble even imagining Finn McCool Runnings...
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."

- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012

Quote:robkelk wrote:

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At least they weren't Celtic Jamaicans. I'm having trouble even imagining Finn McCool Runnings...

"It's Bobsled Time!  C'mon, grab your friends?"
EDIT: Found this one over on SB.

Quote:Jail steals the Cradle early, flies it to Earth and brushes aside the orbiting Sectoid fleet.

"SO I HEARD YOU WANTED A SUPER DIMENSIONAL FORTRESS"

Cue the Irresponsible Captain Scaglietti, Defender of the Earth.

The Nanoha/X-COM crossover it's implying (and the one in that thread) are SNB enough, but with just a little push...

Quote:Jail steals the Cradle early, flies it to Earth and brushes aside the nearby Zentraedi fleet.

"SO I HEARD YOU WANTED ANOTHER SUPER DIMENSIONAL FORTRESS"

Cue the Irresponsible (RDF) Captain Scaglietti, Defender of the Earth.

Yeah.
Isn't it about time to lock this one, and move to Thread XVII?  I've already started the new one.

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My Unitarian Jihad Name is: Brother Atom Bomb of Courteous Debate. Get yours.

I've been writing a bit.

And here I had a chance to get in the idea about the undead Jamaican Bobsled team in Ghoul Runnings... Guess I'll just have to close the thread instead.
-- Bob
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Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.